Episode #1 - Katie Martell on Truth-Telling, Woke-Washing & Green Velour
Derek Horn (00:00):
Hello, welcome to the first episode of In These Uncertain Times. I'm so excited to share a conversation I had with my friend, Katie Martell.
Katie has many things, but first and foremost, she's a self-described unapologetic marketing truth teller. She is currently working on Woke-Washed, a documentary and book exploring the collision of marketing and social movements named one of the most interesting people in B to B marketing and a three time, top marketing voice on LinkedIn. Katie has been a startup CMO, SaasS entrepreneur communications consultant, and has served as the executive director of Boston content, new England's largest community of content professionals. Our conversation highlights the responsibility of marketers during this time of public health prices and racial justice, recognizing the power of saying no to make room for the most important things in life, as well as the secrets to lasting relationships.
You might hear a little buzz behind my audio throughout the recording. My apartment building maintenance crew kindly wanted to commemorate my first interview recording with some celebratory drilling, but Katie and I were on a roll, and in the spirit of adaptability and resilience I'm hoping to capture with this podcast, we forged on with our conversation.
Derek Horn (01:30):
Well, hi Katie. Thank you for joining me today on the first episode of In These Uncertain Times, how are you doing?
Katie Martell (01:37):
Thrilled and delighted to be your first guest! Thank you so, so, so much, and congratulations on launching this. I think this is an amazing endeavor during coronavirus.
Derek Horn (01:46):
Thank you. Yeah. I wanted to get myself a project to keep myself busy. So you described yourself as an “unapologetic marketing truth teller”. What does that mean?
Katie Martell (01:57):
What do you think it means? I want to hear your take on it.
Derek Horn (02:00):
Ooh, interesting. So I've been following you for a little bit and I think you're probably one of my most solid LinkedIn follows. And I also subscribe to your newsletter, which is top notch. I had recommend all the listeners subscribe. But I think just seeing you in action, you really can cut through the bullshit of marketing and really kind of see who's doing things right. And honestly, as well as kind of who is all bark no bite in a way. So I, I think that you really, in my eyes, have a singular perspective on that. And that's one of the reasons why I asked you to be my first guest.
Katie Martell (02:43):
I love that. And that's exactly what hopefully it, it means, um, it, it was given to me the nickname by a colleague and I kind of just took it on. I said, Oh, this is actually a great thing to aspire to be within the realm of marketing because our industry is very good at marketing ourselves, right? We like to, um, you know, give ourselves award after award to recognize the work we do. And, and it's all well and good. And I have a ton of respect for our industry, but I think it needs a balance of criticism and critique of activism and continually questioning if what we're doing is the right thing for everybody affected by what we do. And what we do as marketers is the, I say the world's most powerful industry. And so we really need to keep it in check sometimes. And so, um, I've been writing about some of the, you know, illusions of progress that I think we, we say that we make in marketing and some of the ugly truths behind that, but I think that's important to just keep moving the industry forward.
Derek Horn (03:40):
Awesome. I love that. So I know that right now you're working on a documentary called Woke Washed. Will you tell us about your documentary and where that name comes from?
Katie Martell (03:51):
I will, and I, I thank you for giving me a chance to talk about it. It actually is from where the nickname of Ridgid is about four years ago, I started to blog about fem-vertising, you know, advertising using the ideas of feminism and the actions of the companies behind some of these ads, unsurprising to anyone who has ever studied marketing. Not all the actions of the business lined up to what they were promising in the ad. For example, you know, State Street had the Fearless Girl campaign and it made international headlines. I mean, this is the most recognizable fem-vertising campaign globally. It's a little girl staring down, you know, the charging bull of Wall Street with this feel good message. It had a ton of, you know, of earned media that was just PR social buzz because people wanted to share this very feel-good, feminist message.
Katie Martell (04:40):
I mean, underneath State Street itself, State Street Global Advisors was under a ton of scrutiny for failing to pay female executives the same as their male counterparts and patterns of pregnancy discrimination. I mean, really, really basic stuff where if you're really trying to uphold the ideals of feminism, there's a pretty easy checklist. Do you pay your women? Well, you know, do you have an equal representation of women on your board and, and C suite, do you have maternity leave? That is like, you know, of the 21st century, it's really basics that a lot of these companies were failing to live up to.
It's not just fem-vertising though. We see this in June, in around pride marketing companies claiming to support the LGBTQ community where the business themselves, the industry they're in or their supply chain or their communities fail to uphold the most basic of protections.
Katie Martell (05:29):
We see it with greenwashing where companies claim to be sustainable, but a lot of their practices are not. And 2020 being 2020, we have pandemic pandering: companies claiming to be there for you with really no support or flexibility and Black Lives Matter, getting pandered to, and with lip service around, we stand in solidarity with the protest, but with no internal accountability towards being part of the solution around systemic racism. So all of this, I call woke-washed marketing. It's this crazy new reality. We live in where this has suddenly become the new normal and my film, my upcoming book, all of it is a conversation. The good, some companies actually live these values the bad, right. And the impact of either or, it's a conversation around why it happens, what we can all do about it as consumers, as marketers, as businesses. It’s hopefully is going to be, I haven't found one yet, the first kind of piece of it's time of our time on this issue. And I really hope it's an educational resource while it also galvanizes people to think about this a little differently.
Derek Horn (06:35):
That's so exciting. And I think that, especially now the younger generations, when they've kind of grown up in this generally very cynical time in a way and I think that I, that they just kind of are fine tuned to see when a company is kind of just pandering or if they're, they're really walking the walk and have the stuff going on behind the scenes to back up their image that they're projecting publicly. So I think that it's, it's super, super timely and super important conversation for anybody in any marketing, in any industry to be paying attention to.
Katie Martell (07:15):
So true. It's so true. Can I make a comment on that then the Gen Z? You know, I have read an article last week that was just like, don't blame millennials, stop blaming millennials for all your, your words. I also think we have to be careful about Gen Z. I think they're not. The next generation is not always the saviors. We want them to be, unless we, the elder millennials, you know, give them the tools and the guidance to leverage what they think is their superpowers accordingly. Like I think the Gen Z power came from the fact that they were native and they are native to social media. We were all native to things like MySpace, right? And, but this is really a time when social media has, has it adapted and it attracted mainstream. And so there's the reach that we didn't have 10 years ago.
Katie Martell (07:57):
I think that's the power and the age of social. Yeah, we talk a lot about social media, but it's now an age of accountability and activism and sunlight, and that is why it's powerful, and this is not an issue or a tool. And what I mean by that is calling out brands for pandering, calling out brands for past misbehavior, you know, and allowing those messages of activism to spread. We didn't have that. And I think that we can leverage the same tools that Gen Z has embodied, you know, that's, that's available to any generation. And I do think it's incumbent. And I say this in the film, it's incumbent upon all of us boomers and beyond, you know, to embrace this, the sense of voting with your wallet: choosing who you decide to do business with, but also voting with where you choose to work, right, where you choose to give your talent and how you leverage your social platforms. So I think everybody's an activist and everyone should be an activist. I'm all for it because I think that's how you hold some of these companies accountable.
Derek Horn (08:56):
Of course. Yeah. And I think that right now, there's so much nonsense about “Cancel Culture” going on about how it's “destroying society” and this and that. And that's a whole other conversation entirely, but I think most, most instances of quote unquote “Cancel Culture” are really consequence culture. I can't remember who said that, but I think that definitely extends to brands. It's like they they've been able to get away with so many things for so long that now they're really under this laser focus scrutiny, and also have a direct line from their consumers to be able to be called out on it.
Katie Martell (09:36):
Right. And now it matters more than ever. And I was going to not say that phrase “now more than ever”, but here we are saying it, “unprecedented time”, but now we have these companies that are co-opting real movements, social justice movements. The feminist movement has been existing for decades, and now companies are going to co-opt it for their own gain. The gay rights movement is a fight to live without persecution. And now it's just about slapping a rainbow on an H&M product line, regardless of, by the way, where it's manufactured, which, by the way, is in countries where it's illegal to be gay and you could be put to death. We don't question it, right? These are serious social movements, Black Lives Matter. That's about actual lives, mattering, period. And it's being co-opted. Somebody I think was Kenny Thacher, I'm gonna misquote him, but he said this is colonization from brands around social movements. I thought that's exactly what it is. It's movements being colonized by brands, without any respect for what the movements entail. This is where social media could actually hold companies accountable. Not because you don't like them, which is what all the critics of cancel culture say, but because somebody has to hold them accountable, it's like a third branch of government. Right? Right. Regulations is one thing fine. Customer base is one another. There is real power in bad press and viral bad press on social. We have to leverage it. I'm a former PR girl here claiming we have to create bad press, but it keeps brands reactive, which is what we want. We want them to stay on their toes so they don't co-op movements that matter to folks like you and I
Derek Horn (11:10):
Totally. So my podcast name, In These Uncertain Times is inspired by those relentless commercials and email campaigns that were bombarding us in the spring to kind of an almost comical degree. So in the COVID era, what brands do you think have done a good job with their COVID response? And which do you think have missed the mark?
Katie Martell (11:32):
I saw someone write, it was “uncertain, unprecedented, challenging, troubling, difficult, tough times. TM.” That was from Mark St. Amant. It's just, it, this, we don't know how to talk about this year because we don't have the vocabulary for it. At least we don't think we do something like a pandemic does throw us for a loop and it interrupts everything we thought we could do. I, you know, I come from the world of startups, right. And me, this is kind of normal. I mean, you're kind of, you're thrown something and you have to adapt quickly and pivot. And if you're a startup, if you're a kind of a solopreneur like me, it's just in your DNA to reinvent. Right. And I have done quite a few. We can talk about that. But for most businesses that are, you know, bigger and have a lot of employees too, to try to pivot along with this, that was the only language available to us unprecedented times.
Katie Martell (12:17):
Like we didn't have the vocabulary to describe the changes. I think we did though. Yes. The pandemic is unprecedented. We've not lived through one yet, but we were already moving towards working remotely. We were already moving towards convenience, things like curbside pickup, online inventory. We were already moving towards an eCommerce expectation that mirrored Amazon with personalized that personalized shopping with breadth of availability. It's like, people don't want to go back, right? So this is just the natural evolution accelerated. But to answer your question, the brands that are doing it, “right”, quote unquote, are the ones that were already putting these pieces in motion, retailers that we're already going for click or call or come visit our store curbside, and just pick it up. For B2B companies, which is where my history is in B2B, we were already moving away from a sales model that required a lot of in person interaction. We were already moving to self-service and, by the way, budget cuts were already anticipated for 2020. So if marketers weren't being proactive about some of these changes, they were caught off guard. And that's where you saw a lot of companies kind of stumble and not have the muscles, like muscle memory to really pick up and run with it. Others ran with it, others pivoted right away and said, all right, here's the new reality. Here's the new normal, let's go. And they have that agility internally to really be able to pivot. I'm thinking of companies as big as Microsoft, who moved employees out of their physical stores right away and got them on to be, you know, those individuals that would train you how to use your Surface.
Katie Martell (13:55):
They got those individuals to start training people on Microsoft Teams, the virtual collaboration tool, because they knew that was coming. And when they closed all their stores, all of these employees already had a gig in training, right? So here's one example of a giant pivot.
Others are small, you know, in terms of giving back to the pandemic you saw, this is a great 3D printing company here in Cambridge called Formlabs. They sell 3D printers. And towards the beginning of the pandemic, the conversation was really around we need materials for PPE and for testing. So they actually galvanized about 1500 volunteers. It didn’t have to be a Formlabs customer, but it was people that were volunteering to use their three 3D printers at home to manufacture some of the pieces, you know, the swab with the nasal tests, some of the pieces for the face shields.
Katie Martell (14:42):
Would you call it a marketing move? I don't know. I call it pivot. Re-imagining the resources you have in order to give back to and help the frontline effort. Those are the companies that did it, right? Leveraging the resources you have and just pivoting and being in adapting.
The ones who made our eyes roll were the ones that looked at this like a business as usual, and said, we're here for you in this difficult unprecedented time. Oh, by the way, we're sanitizing our store. Like that is not what this time calls for. It calls for you to reimagine what that customer experiences they're going to be. I think it's going to see a lot of companies shut down because they were not able to see this coming. This is not new stuff. We've been talking about this for a decade now, in terms of this being the future of business, I hate to say it, but like survival of the fittest matters, right? You have to adapt to survive. And this is a great example.
Derek Horn (15:31):
Totally. And yeah, I think that a lot of these procedures that companies are putting in place, mostly the retail ones, are not dissimilar to, I think what happened kind of after 9/11, where you had this idea of security theater, where that was more so like at the airport and things like that, but now it's like taking your temperature check when you go into a store when there's a lot of science that says that's not necessarily an indicator of infection, but it's something that makes people feel safe. Same goes for all the hand sanitizer and consistently disinfecting surfaces. It's kind of that perception of, Oh, look at us, we're keeping it clean, you’re gonna be safe, when it's not necessarily that cut and dry.
Katie Martell (16:25):
Have you followed any of those in-store arrows that tell you where to go?
Derek Horn (16:30):
Yeah. I mean, I think maybe, maybe early days, like when I was still feeling like I was dodging laser beams every time it was going out, trying not to touch anything, but now it's just kind of like they're all scuffed up on the floor and nobody really pays attention to them at all.
Katie Martell (16:49):
But you're right with performance. I love that idea of performance. And I think that's what a lot of companies are dealing with. That's a very high macro level trend to me. I mean, talk about what we're talking about with, with Woke-Washed, you know, the performative allyship, pretending, looking as if. Giving this great theatrical experience that you actually care about an issue that you don't really care about. Same thing for the pandemic it's, it's all window dressing. And I think this is back to where marketers are either considered window dressing where either just the PR team meant to cover up issues, or we are actually a strategic part of the organization. That's amazing that one ends up with performative allyship performative measures to respond to COVID that go nowhere, that ring hollow and that are called out by, you know, um, activist, consumers, the other are, are the companies that were able to pivot and actually showing off the what they're, what they're actually doing. Legitimate actions. That's, that's the most important part of this to me is what is, what are these companies really doing behind the scenes? What is it, what are they holding accountable to? Whether it's pandemic or Black Lives Matter? It's about turning the spotlight internally instead of using marketing as a shield to deflect and to spin and to shine the spotlight somewhere else.
Derek Horn (18:02):
So every time I saw one of those commercials in the spring of about the new COVID procedures and we're here for you, this and that, all I could really think of is, unless they were very clearly using stock footage they already had, you're really sending a film crew out to film your employees right now and have this unnecessary exposure? It’s one of those things that I don't know if many other people think about, or if it's me just cause I've kind of been on the other side of that before, but it is something that has stuck in my head quite a bit.
Katie Martell (18:36):
I think that how organizations treat employees is the first line of defense. The first thing to look at as to whether or not they're actually here for you in these difficult times, right? Are we exposing our employees to unnecessary risk in the name of being there for you or do they actually care about the impact? And by the way, this, again, intersects with black lives matter. Black and Brown Americans are unnecessarily exposed to this pandemic because of the nature of the fields that they tend to work in. That's incredible. It's part of this struggle and this movement is calling for. So this pandemic is revealing a lot about organizations and what they truly value. And I think those that were able to give their employees, um, you know, remote options for those of us that are very lucky enough to, you know, privileged enough to work in those conditions that showed, you know, one take on that little check box of, of what they actually care about.
Katie Martell (19:28):
The ones that are giving them a face mask and saying, good luck. That's not care. And don't send me an email that says that you care, because that is showing me through your actions that you don't, but I'm with you. I think it is unnecessary to expose film crews just for the sake of showing the rest of the world, how good you are, right? You are hitting the nail on the head. And not to get too theoretical, but this is a big shift we're seeing happening from shareholder capitalism to stakeholder capitalism. And I follow companies like just brands or just capital that tracks and researches the kind of, you know, the temperature of business and increasingly organizations are committed to their stakeholders. Everyone impacted by a business: that's employees that supply chains, communities, customers, all of them are impacted by a brand.
Katie Martell (20:15):
And so we're presented with an opportunity. You as a business, have an opportunity to create tons, more impact than you think, if you're willing to adopt the fact that it also means you can harm more communities and more people, right? So we have to think about the impact of business and the role of a business in society. You know, I could rant on this all day, but that's what 2020 is about, for me. This is like asking everyone to re examine, what is business? What is capitalism? What are we willing to accept? Just happens to be an election year too, which is creating a lot of these conversations and putting them into context. It's wild. It's wild to rethink our role as consumers, your role as a marketer, my role it's what we have to, this is healthy debate. And I think change is hard but necessary. Don't get me going, Derek. I'll go all day on this.
Derek Horn (21:02):
Building on the Black Lives Matter conversation, obviously the summer, after the killing of George Floyd by Minneapolis police, there's been a lot of tough conversations and actions in support of the Black Lives Matter movement as they’ve commanded the nation's attention. It's obviously been a major wake up call to brands and companies that have been less than progressive in their approaches to their internal policies, as well as their external marketing practices. With the acknowledgement that we're two white people having this discussion, what do you think are the most pressing priorities for the marketing industry in regards to racial justice? And is there anybody that you think is making good progress?
Katie Martell (21:43):
I love this question and thank you for calling out the obvious, which is, this is two white people talking about an issue that is affecting, uh, you know, our, our Black and Brown sisters and brothers and everyone in between. I think this is important though, right? We are allies and, and I see very much my role at a very personal level as needing to learn and listen, and man 2020 has been, and I know that's kind of a cliche answer, I feel like that's a very like celebrity, “I’m learning, I'm reading,” but like that was step one. And it has to be step one because the alternative is we white people barge in without any respect for what's necessary and what's needed once we listen and learn and I've done a lot, it's been an education for me. And I think that if we have a platform and I'm very, very lucky to have a platform, a big one, I monetize it. It's my livelihood.
It's also an opportunity I think, to elevate this discussion, I've written a lot about this exact question of what is the responsibility of the marketing industry as it relates to Black Lives Matter. I didn't know at first, and I wrote an article about the risks of performative allyship, and I took me forever to write this article because I was so scared of getting it wrong, right. I can bitch about fem-vertising and I can bitch about rainbow-washed marketing and remind everyone of the real movements behind it. For some reason, Black Lives Matter felt different to me. The movement is asking of us as collective Americans, something so basic that the fact that there's any controversy around it is deeply troubling. I mean, it's just asking for the same level of respect for a human life, for someone with one skin color over the other and the treatment of that person, but in terms of police brutality.
Katie Martell (23:27):
But it's also asking, I think, more important questions around systemic racism and the racism that's experienced every day. So what would an industry like marketing who's pure job is to uphold capitalism, rife with systemic racism, what is the role of marketing in this big, in this context? At first, the answer to me was nothing. We should have nothing to say about this. This is not our time. This is not our lane. This is an industry, the marketing industry, predominantly functioned with white employees. You look at the ad agency diversity stats, and they haven't changed for years. They are still embarrassingly white. We look at the lack of diversity in our own industry, whether it's tech, marketing, leadership, agency side, we're not doing a very good job, upholding our own actions right towards this. So what happened of course, was the opposite of that reaction.
Katie Martell (24:26):
There was all these performative “we're here with you” brand statements. We saw that just like you got the emails from the CEO about COVID, two months later in June, we got this whole blanket statement of “we're committed to fighting injustice” by putting this thing on social media, and “we're here for you and we're listening.” And it's like, Oh my God, what an opportunity missed to say, “we have a role in, (we being the brand) in fixing the problem. It's almost like saying we acknowledge what the community has gone through. We acknowledge that the movement is asking for, and here's what we're going to do about it. That's the template. It wasn't this, “we stand in solidarity and we will be donating to the NAACP. Please use code Black Lives Matter for 10% off. Oh my God.
Katie Martell (25:11):
I was like, are you kidding? So for me, it really made me question in a hard way, the impact. The impact of performative theatrical, wokeness, what is the impact of all of these brands suddenly jumping on the bandwagon of Black Lives Matter and claim to support the movement. And I think it's worth digging into if you're open to me giving you my take on this.
Man, this is what, and I think it's important to define first. So what I'm talking about here are the opportunistic responses to the movement, empty promises, right? Words like “we condemn,” or “we stand with,” but no action promise. That's performative allyship, opportunistic allyship, no history of meaningful support. Pepsi, I'm looking at you. You know, Kendall Jenner handing the cop [a Pepsi], of course you want to tap into a cultural zeigeist, right? Trying to tap into what used to be good marketing, but this is more serious than that.
Katie Martell (26:04):
This is not just a news event. This is a movement. And finally the performative allyship passes the blame. It's anyone that's looking to put the spotlight on something else, not their own involvement in the movement. What there's danger to that. And to me, the danger first and foremost is that it creates this illusion of progress. It makes it look like the world is far more equitable than it really is. And if you're a consumer, you're not going to sit there and research every single company, putting out these black squares, right. You're going to take them at face value because you have a life. You don't have time to research the diversity stats and the pay of every company. Most companies don't make that public. Secondly, it's exploiting a human rights movement for corporate gains. The idea of co-opting the movement or colonizing the movement, which I'm gonna start using because I think it's brilliant.
And thirdly, it redefines the work to be done. If we, as consumers, as marketers, kind of accept this as the norm, then we say to companies, you know what? You don't have anything to worry about. All I gotta do is put out some social media virtue signaling and you fixed racism, good job, and I hope the board likes your earnings next quarter. Like it ignores the fact that these companies, like I said, have an opportunity in the way that they do business, the way they treat their employees to have real meaningful change, the movement itself calls for it.
And by the way, consumers look to brands to set this example. No longer is government considered the leader in these morality issues or ethics. It's businesses. Look at Patagonia, right? Look at companies that are living these values, they are considered the leaders in this, um, and on and on and on.
There's lobbying that happens, brands that kind of say one thing on their Twitter feeds, but actively lobby against policy for politicians, with politicians that are actively against the movement or having an F rating by the NAACP. Man, we are risking a lot with these black squares that we don't understand.
It’s also undermining the trust in marketing that is already rampantly low. Finally, it exposes the brands to risk. I mean, brands are going to get called out. L’Oreal got called out by a former model that worked with them. Munroe Bergdorf, who was in 2017, actively taking a stand against racist behavior and they were dropped by L'Oreal. And then three years later puts up that social media ad that said “Speaking out is worth it“ as if it never happened.
And it created a PR nightmare. When this transgender model said, “hello, you dropped me for having something to say, and now you're claiming to support it” made L'Oreal look real bad. They had to do a lot of reactionary measures to fix it. They put Munroe on the board to help with future efforts, but they got called out. Yes, part of cancel culture. But again, part of this accountability, we have to understand the impact of performative allyship. A, if we have any understanding, any chance of fixing it, but B if we have any sense of decency and responsibility as marketers. I'll get off my soapbox now.
Derek Horn (29:00):
No, I mean, I think that it's definitely one of those things that “don't tell us about what you're going to do, do it, and your actions will speak for themselves.” And I know that's not as gratifying as being able to rush to put your posts on social media right away. But it's definitely like the same thing as being allies, as white people in our personal lives. It's like, you can't expect to get your ally cookie right away. It's like, we got it, understand that this is a lifelong process and you have to put in the hard work and have the tough conversations and realizations. And it's not something that can be solved in a social media cycle. I know that like the old school of is definitely maybe a hardwired to scratch that itch. But I think hopefully a result of this period is understanding that no, this isn't something that's a trend. That's, it's something, that we have to re-rewire the entire way we do our business and approach different things.
Katie Martell (29:58):
Yeah. And like I said, there are real risks. That's why it's important to understand the risks. Businesses don't do anything ithey know that it's rife with risk, that there's real risks to this, this isn't just something that's flippant and “Oh, you know, shame on you.” I'm trying to take the word “should” out of my vocabulary when I talk about this issue, because shaming doesn't work and, I could give you a lot of examples of companies that are doing this poorly, but I'd love to highlight one that's doing it well, if that's okay with you?
Rent the Runway. Are you familiar? Love this brand, love this company, disrupting the fashion industry. You know, if you're not familiar, they allow you to rent designer clothing, and you can do that for a holiday work party or date or wedding. And it's just great way of wearing these brands that you probably wouldn't be able to afford otherwise. CEO and cofounder, Jennifer Hyman put out one of those statements, “we support Black [lives]”, you know, and I was initially like, oh God, another statement. Let me just read. But I loved it. And I love the statement and the way that she responded, because it did four things. It acknowledged at the industry and her company had responsibility. She said, the fashion industry must do better. And we, Rent the Runway are responsible for being part of the change because the fashion industry has co-opted style, inspiration ideas, or black culture, you know, without ensuring that anyone who's black is economically compensated. I mean, she says this straight up and that's an he's just so refreshing, right? Acknowledging the responsibility. Then she took a stint. She was not afraid to say that Black business, Black designers, and Black talent are in the fashion industries, moral and financial best interests.
Katie Martell (31:29):
So she wasn't just appeasing the movement by saying Black people matter. She was also appeasing her investors and her community of business professionals. When she said, look, it's in our financial best interest to get this right. To me, that's honest. It might seem a little two-faced. But to me, that's the reality here doing well by doing good is good business. And she knows it. And she was willing to take that stand.
They did a lot to actually do measurable actions that demonstrated the ownership. One thing they did is they are giving away not just cash, but they're giving space on the platform. Don't forget to rent these clothing to black designers. And that includes co-manufacturing, initiatives and wholesale and design resources and things to help uplift, individuals who would not have the investment capital or the access. That's a big one, access, to launch on their own.
So that's going to have meaningful impact for people within this community. That is that's not just a donation to the NAACP to sign at end of the day we did it. Woo, woo. That was really her saying, what do we have that we can uniquely offer this community? And if every business did that, this would be a very different conversation.
The final thing they did was, uh, the, you know, the Aurora James 15% pledge, it's a pledge for retailers to take, to say, look, you know, Black people are 15% of the country. They should represent 15% of our shelf space. So Rent the Runway was one of the many brands who have signed on to this pledge by U S retailers. It’s also meant to include things like their fashion talent, right? Representation, their modeling, photographers and videographers behind the scenes. I mean, this was what the movement is calling for, your unique ability to help improve the lives of people affected disproportionately by systemic racism, which means you have to acknowledge your role in that problem. So kudos to Jennifer Hyman and Rent the Runway. Really, really great example.
Derek Horn (33:21):
That is really awesome and I think it definitely just goes to show you one of those companies that really is transforming every aspect of their business. And even I think it seems that they're going beyond even their original mission and kind of getting into supporting the actual creation of some of those things. That's really awesome to kind of see a company that's not boxing themselves into, “Oh, we just do this. And this is kind of the reach we have.” It seems to me that they're going beyond and really putting forth a forward-thinking vision for the industry, which is really awesome.
Katie Martell (33:58):
Sure. Great example for the rest of the people in that space to follow.
Derek Horn (34:02):
Totally. So going onto your process on, in your day to day life, how has COVID foresee to adapt your day to day process and like, what is your workstation look like?
Katie Martell (34:14):
Even besides the fact that I'm wearing sweat pants right now, someone called it the business mullet, it's all professional on top. And then it's like a mess on the bottom and that's it's of my wife and I have a little joke, like how ridiculous I can look every day. It's like here up great. And then here down it could be pajamas, forget it. But you know, that's, that's, I think having a sense of humor has been very important, but, um, my workstation now is at home. I had an office that I was sharing with a colleague and I had to, you know, kind of vacate it and I was just devastated. I had a really cool space, big, big, big, you know, old warehouse, just so beautiful, but we bought a house a year ago. And how lucky are we that timing could not have been better?
Katie Martell (34:52):
How privileged I feel to have an actual home office, we slapped up some Target peel and stick wallpaper. For me, I do a lot of on-camera even with the documentary, I'm doing everything virtually. I do a lot of speaking now, so I've got it. If I turn the camera around, you'd see the legitimate camera, this big ring light, like I'm some YouTube influencer and just all this, you know, mic, it's just like, everyone's becoming a home, you know, AV person here. And I just, I love it. I love that I can create so easily.
And I love that it's accessible. Um, and we've got little pockets. I have this beautiful chair off to the corner that you can't see. That's Martin, My wife's, grandfather's pink and ornate and just beautiful. And so I can turn the camera and have like an Oprah moment. You know, I'm sitting on a little, little chair talking, it's just, you have to think about this. And you’re doing this from the comfort of your bedroom, right? Like this is the new normal of creating in video content and COVID. But I'm amazed at some people's home setups, man. Some people have like studios, I need a studio. How do we make that happen?
Derek Horn (35:50):
So what are your primary methods of communication with, I know you work alone for the most part, but partners or clients or anything like that. And has that been any different in this time?
Katie Martell (36:03):
It has. I use a lot of agency partners. You know, when I do like partnerships with brands, I need like videographers and artists and it's just a lot of people moving to texts and WhatsApp, but I'm totally down with that. I really, if you're going to work kind of all hours of the day without separation of work life balance, which I'm not advocating for, but is the reality. I like that I'm getting more casual updates by what's happened tags and not just, you know, these long emails.
But the newsletter that you mentioned earlier has been a godsend for me. I love the fact that I have an outlet I wish to share when I think people need to be reading and also what I'm up to and things like that. So it's a good promotional tool, but it's really just meant to shine a spotlight on the articles and the things that I feel are important.
I kind of follow in the footsteps of a couple of newsletters that I read that I recommend are the Ann Friedman weekly. She's a writer and a journalist. And also the Brain Pickings newsletter, it's daily by Maria Popova. And they're just both these big dense link, heavy. I mean, you're, you're open one and you'll be down a rabbit hole for a day and it's wonderful. Cause it gets you out of that doom scrolling into a more curated experience. So I have one, you should have one, everyone should have a newsletter. I fully, fully, fully believe in that.
Derek Horn (37:16):
Is there anything that you've discovered about your process during this period that you want to keep going for the long haul?
Katie Martell (37:24):
I think I've said no to a lot this year. I had to cancel like five different events just in, I think, March and April, I was doing a road show for my documentary. I was going to be filming all of it. I had canceled so many speaking things, not all paid by the way. I get booked a lot and I love to speak and it's all of them being canceled. It didn't make me rethink the role, but it made me rethink what I said yes to what was worth the effort, what was worth the emotional bandwidth. And I think saying no, not only creates space for more, it might seem like a privilege thing to be able to say no, but I believe very much in a scarcity versus abundance mentality.
Katie Martell (38:04):
That was a big, big learning for me this year as an independent, my work comes from any deal that I strike and close, right? So I'm very much always in sales mode. But if you think of yourself as a scarce resource or your time is if you think of opportunities out there is scarce and you say yes to things that aren't good fits because you feel like you have to, you gotta make payroll, you gotta do this. The abundance mentality says saying no to those things will create space for what really is great work that is allined with you, your values, your time, your people. It has been the biggest difference in August this year. I kind of like tuned out what I was doing. I put an end to a few projects and I said to myself, moving forward, I'm only going to do things that feel like I hate to say it, that I really want to do, fun, aligned with me and my values.
Katie Martell (38:53):
There might be new things. And a lot of new stuff is coming from me this fall. I'm moving into very much an online show creation. I'm now doing partnered brands, you know, like news-type, talk show-type stuff with organizations. It's fun, you know, and it falls under the influencer stuff. I've got enough followers to fall into that, which I think is silly. But I also love the fact that this can get pull from my history of marketing, but is entirely new. And it moves towards this direction of documentary. And, and, uh, what I just call evangelist, advocate, activist, it's just the direction I would love to head in. I'm going to not lose my marketing background, but I'm going to use it for more now. And because of it was because I said no to like this hamster wheel of consulting and speaking and freelancing that I was able to focus on this. And this feels fun. Can't believe I get paid to do half the stuff I get to do.
Derek Horn (39:44):
That's awesome. I think that this period for a lot of people was just kind of forced people to take a step back and take score of “Okay. What is really important to me?” Cause I know that the day to day of our quote unquote “old world” can just be so exhausting that you just kind of go, go, go that you don't really have a moment to stop and reflect. And I think that that is such an important thing to do in life. otherwise it could just keep going, keep, keep spinning that hamster wheel and you wake up one morning and are like, “Oh crap. I hate this hamster wheel.”
Katie Martell (40:18):
And we're seeing that too, with the rise of divorce. Oh my God. Have you been reading about that? I'm fine. We're good. Me and Martin. We just celebrated four years. Very lucky. We're very happy. Um, but the, the rise in divorce rate, not only here in America, but around the world. China had a big problem early on it's because people are now stuck, quiet sitting with the person they married and realizing they're not happy. And it's so easy to get caught up in the momentum of everything else, activity, both for work. And this, the people are realizing I'm not happy here and I'm out, let's all continue that intentionality. Let's all continue that deliberate examining of our lives every now and again, to check in with ourselves and say, am I doing what makes me happy? And it's okay for that answer to be no, it's okay to end up somewhere that you're not happy in. The worst thing you can do is to ignore that feeling, that knowing sense that I'm not where I'm supposed to be. Anytime you have that feeling, listen to it. There's always a new direction. Look at Madonna, look at Gaga, right? Reinvention is a human nature, a condition you can always figure out another way to make money, to survive, to be happy. It's you're never stuck, ever, ever, ever.
Derek Horn (41:24):
I love that advice. Yeah. I know, same for me. I was actually supposed to get married this past weekend, but we had to postpone the wedding. But I think that if anything, during this period, and I won't pretend there haven't been moments where we've driven each other crazy, I think it's definitely solidified our partnership and it's been really great.
Katie Martell (41:45):
Do you want to hear my grandmother's dying advice to me? I know you're trying to wrap up this podcast, but I'd like to give you my grandma's dying wedding advice to me, the, my grandmother died six months before our wedding. So my dad's mom, her name was Edna Martell. We called her Nanny and you know, we went to the hospital when I went to say goodbye. This is in 2016. When I got married pre election, by the way. And she had Martin and I, you know, there, and by the bed, she was always very supportive of me being gay. And it was very grateful for that. You know, a woman that age, you never quite know. She had us both over, we're both looking at her, she's making us cry because she's telling us, I picked up my wedding outfit. She was gonna wear this green velour that I'm sure was just Epic. And by the way, we now have a green velour couch. And I'm wondering if it's always okay, that wasn't intentional, but I'm wondering if that was her way of saying like, Hey, I'm still here.
She said, if I can give you some advice for your upcoming wedding, it's this let a lot of things go, that's it. And I kind of laughed and I was Martin and I were like, Oh, that's sweet. We're still like verklempt about the green velour suit. But as we are now married four years and my friend, as you will soon find out now that I'm an expert in an old game and give you this advice, it is all about letting a lot of things go. You are with someone and it's for the long haul, which means you have to put up with each other period. And I do think when you have fights and when you have disagreements, my God, that whole adage about like, don't go to bed angry. That's bullshit. You are going to go to bed angry the next morning, wake up and start over and start fresh. Because if you don't, what's the point, the grudges, they don't serve you. Right. You have to let a lot of stuff, go and leave room for the rest. Cause this fucking world, sorry is crazy right now. And I'm so grateful to have my lovely wife. She is my rock through all of this. That's my wedding advice. That's lovely. Thank you. You'll have that wedding. And it will be fabulous, my friend.
Derek Horn (43:36):
I know everybody's gonna be dying for a party once we get out of this. I know that when I got to New York, I definitely went on a lot of dates and met a lot of people. And I think that this is the same in a lot of big cities, but there's always people that, that it seems like they're under the mentality of like, Oh, this was good, but I know that like my dream person is out there. And I think at the end of the day that that kind of shining Prince charming or whatever, I think that kind of is just a false thing that a lot of people chase. And I think that, I went on a lot of dates where it's like, Oh, this was good. Like, what do you want to hang out again? And I could just sense that there's this waffling where it's like, Oh yeah, that was fine. But eh.
I love my partner Joey to death and it's like, I think that there's a lot of people that don't take a step back and take stock of what is great in front of them. And I think they miss a lot of opportunity from that. So definitely I love that advice that you gave.
Katie Martell (44:45):
Yeah. I mean, it's a, you know, online dating, you have everyone at your disposal instantly. It's this feeling that you can always get something more and that just isn't true. The perfect person isn't out there, but don't also be willing to compromise on what really matters to you. And I think the one thing that, I mean, the baseline that, I mean, the person has to want to put in the effort to be with you. If you have to fight for someone, walk away, someone is out there that is going, yeah, it's going to see that they're lucky to be with you. And that's the kind of person that, I mean, somebody said this, but be with someone who thinks the sun shines out your ass every day. I love that. I'll put that on a tee shirt for you.
Derek Horn (45:22):
Look at us, we should start like a love, a advice podcast. So what is something that is important to you that you think society should be paying more attention to?
Katie Martell (45:34):
I think we need to be more willing to say what we're thinking. And by what I mean by that is you're in a situation where your relatives from Georgia are coming to visit grandpa and they don't believe in coronavirus and they don't want to wear a mask and you feel obligated to keep your mouth shut, but you inside are thinking, Oh my God, this is dangerous. And Oh my God, this is the wrong thing. What do you do? I think for a lot of people in that moment, they just, they seek to keep the peace and they let potentially devastating things happen. I think speaking up and saying what you believe, what you feel, what you know, to be true matters. I call them exceptional truths. You can read about banality of evil, you know, with the Nazis. It really was a lot of people who didn't speak up. We're living in a time where we could really easily descend into fascism here in America and the need to speak up and speak out is more important than ever.
Don't seek to keep the peace when it threatens the fabric of democracy, the fabric of what you know to be right and your integrity. It's, it's okay to create that friction, because that friction, I bet 10 other people in that room are thinking, thank God you said something. Be that person who says something, be the person who says what everyone's thinking, but nobody will say a lot. It takes some cahones and it takes some bravery, but my God it's worth it. And if you don't, who will, right. It's my PSA for America.
Derek Horn (46:58):
Yeah. It's like, I'm probably butchering this, but there's this quote that's like neutrality always benefits the oppressor. And I think that that's definitely true. We’re in a period where it is hard to be optimistic and look forward to brighter days. But hopefully one day this, this challenging period will be in our rear view mirror. When you imagine that day, what are you hopeful for?
Katie Martell (47:30):
I was joking about this earlier, I think that we are ready for the the Roaring Twenties. I mean, there's a reason that the last Roaring Twenties happened, it was we’re out of the war. And you know, we have the ability now to enjoy our life and let this be an opportunity to remind us what matters. I know it sounds cliche, but let's embrace what we are able to do once it's safe to do it. Let's embrace music and theater and the businesses that are now that that whole industry is now struggling. Let’s embrace what's local, let's embrace what's here and now, and not what's out there. If I’m optimistic today. I know it's a tough day. In fact, this morning I woke up and I was like, Oh my God, I have to put on a brave face for this podcast.
Katie Martell (48:08):
But like, just talking to you about this has made me feel better. The connection that we have to remember what gets us through this, that's going to sustain us when it's all over. Go get right with yourself on what you have come to terms with during this time reflect on it. I will be honest. I have, I'm very grateful that here in Massachusetts medical marijuana is very accessible. That has done my crutch. And I, you know, part of me wonders am I just numbing myself, you know, after six, every night to the realities, but I realized like, no, that's, that's coping. Like that's just self-preservation. And that to me is just my way, it, my advice of getting through this, but also giving up booze during this time. Right? So hold onto the things that allow you to keep going, no judgment for that. No judgment for how you're getting through this and keep that going after COVID. To me, I'm probably gonna still be a stoner when I'm my grandmother's age and dying giving my granddaughters wedding advice, whatever, like I did you. This time should show you how self-care hopefully is important and how it matters. And don't lose sight of that. That’s my excuse for being a stoner for the rest of my life.
Derek Horn (49:17):
That's great advice.
Katie Martell (49:19):
Great advice. Smoke pot. That's going to be your tweetable moment. Martell advice on 2020.
Derek Horn (49:29):
Love it. So thank you, Katie, for having this great conversation with me.
Katie Martell (49:34):
Have I convinced you not to have a podcast or have I convinced you that it's worth doing? Be honest.
Derek Horn (49:39):
It is definitely worth doing, and I am excited to continue and maybe, maybe you can come back someday down the line.
Katie Martell (49:46):
Let's do it. I want to guest host a podcast with you and I want to interview you and I will gladly do that whenever you're ready.
Derek Horn (49:53):
That sounds like an awesome offer that I will take you up on. So before we wrap up, is there, do you want to plug? Your newsletter or anything like that?
Katie Martell (50:04):
You can subscribe to the world's best newsletter at katie-martell.com How's that?
Derek Horn (50:10):
Awesome. And where can people find you on social media?
Katie Martell (50:14):
Um, I'm @KatieMartell on everything, and if you really want to stalk me, you can Google me like a good marketer. I'm everywhere.
Derek Horn (50:25):
All right. Well, thank you, Katie. And hope to talk to you soon.
Katie Martell (50:29):
Thank you for having me Derek and good luck with this podcast.