Derek Horn
Welcome back to In These Uncertain Times, a podcast about creating and connecting in the midst of uncertainty. I’m your host, Derek Horn.
On today’s episode, I’m thrilled to have a discussion with the brilliant Susan X Jane.
Susan is the Principle of Navigators Consulting and is a skilled facilitator, trainer and coach, with experience in organizational development and strategic planning. She has over 25 years of experience working in mission-focused organizations, supporting communities to create change and training leaders ready to take on the challenge of our times.
Susan began her work pursuing social justice with youth in the juvenile justice system and marginalized communities, engaging in community organizing programs and leadership training for young activists. Her work in the non-profit sector focused on race and gender equity in communities of color, particularly in using media as a tool of empowerment. Her advocacy for racial justice in the media led her to higher ed, and Wheelock College, where Susan was the founding director of the Communications and Media Literacy BA program, teaching Media Studies, Sociology and Organizational Communications.
Susan started Navigators Consulting to continue her work with organizations in the public and private sector, helping others to better understand the realities of race in American and what is needed to move beyond the buzzwords to build sustainable communities of belonging. Her approach integrates work exploring the very personal nature of identity with the structural realities of organizations and communities. She encourages clients to map out their own unique pathway to creating healthy culture, and works with them to expand diversity beyond HR into every aspect of organization. Always down for a good debate, Susan writes and talks about media, race and culture at smntks.com and for publications including Glamour, WBUR and The Christian Science Monitor.
Susan and I have a discussion about the timeliness and timelessness of her work as a DEI facilitator, she helps us understand the role of racialized power dynamics throughout American history and how they show up in white-centric corporate cultures, we break down the recent insurrection at the US Capitol, and wrap up with a discussion about how the media can dangerously warp one’s worldview and entire sense of reality.
As a heads up, our conversation includes substantial discussion of violence against Black and Brown people at the hands of the police and white supremacists, as well as the recent attack on the nation’s Capitol.
We recorded this episode on Friday, January 8th, so the situation has developed and more revelations have been made since we spoke.
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Hello, Susan, thank you for joining on In These Uncertain Times today. How are you doing?
Susan X Jane
I'm doing great. And thank you so much for inviting me on. I'm really glad to be here with you having this conversation.
Derek Horn
I'm glad that you are here. So to get started, can you please introduce yourself to listeners in your own words?
Susan X Jane
Sure. My name is Susan X Jane. And I am the principal of Navigators C onsulting. And I offer coaching and training and strategic support around increasing diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging with organizations and public and private sector.
Derek Horn
So how has COVID forced you to adapt your process in doing that? And how does that look different than the pre-COVID time?
Susan X Jane
Well, it has been a little bit of a shift for me, but less so for some people, I was part of a team that was remote working before COVID. So I was primarily working with a client that was a remote worker. So we were on Slack, everybody was in different parts of the country. So there was a little bit less of a learning curve in terms of going from the in person to a virtual work experience. That being said, in terms of a lot of my work and clients and things I had lined up. There was one afternoon early in March that I remember, I got a cancellation at 10 in the morning. And by two o'clock, my entire schedule for the year had been canceled. And it had been a pretty full schedule. And so it was a moment where I was like, Okay, I had a whole plan and none of that is going to happen. And then, you know, now nearly a year later, it ended up to be quite a transformative year. So, you know, that opening opened up the ability to do a lot of work that came later in the year. So it was so much change, wasn't it? Just this pivot, but I'll never forget that day. That was the day that it was like, oh, okay, like, this is pretty serious, you know?
Derek Horn
Yeah, I think a lot of us have those moments. can remember that moment when they're that kind of like things kind of set in and like, " Oh, crap, this is something that is gonna be a big deal for a little while.
Susan X Jane
And I remember, I was supposed to speak at South by Southwest. And I remember we were debating should we fly down or not? Yeah. And I'll never forget that day, I was looking at the news, there had been 70 COVID deaths. And we thought that was enough to cancel South by Southwest. And now we'll have 70 just in the time that we're talking.
Derek Horn
Yeah. And if not more.
Susan X Jane
And so many people are still going about business as usual. So what is the difference a year makes.
Derek Horn
Totally. So what are your primary methods of communication with the people that you work with? people on your team or the clients you work with? And is that kind of been affected at all by COVID? Or is that more of the same that you've been doing in a working remotely environment?
Susan X Jane
Well, aside from that one team that was working virtually, that I was doing some projects when everyone else has shifted to completely online. So I live in Zoom-land, I sometimes spend more time in Zoom than I do in the material world, which has made for a lot of change in difference. And especially in doing diversity work. It's so much about connecting with people. And you know, I even as I'm saying that I want to like make this motion from my stomach out like how we how we connect with people in in real spaces, so much a part about work around inclusion, and connection. And so doing that in a virtual space has been really different. And I've found some things that are big pitfalls to it. And I've found some other things that are some really weird silver linings that I think I've found to it as well.
Derek Horn
What are some of those silver linings that you found?
Susan X Jane
I mean, we know that when you're in Zoom, so much of it, so much of how you would communicate is removed, because you're just this little box on a screen. And I've also found that, that in doing work around diversity, there's so much shame and guilt and anger that gets into the conversation that when I'm talking to you about that, but you're in your home and your puppy's on your lap, or you can hear your kids in the background, I think it creates a space for people to be able to open themselves up in ways that maybe would have been more difficult, I think that I can see such benefits to being in person, and then also benefits to these opportunities that are in this world that we find ourselves in, as well. And the work won't wait, you know, so when, when you really make the switch and say, how can we make this like a rich experience and include all these other ways for people to connect, other than just the little Zoom box, there's, there's different ways and some people are quiet, and they like to talk like this, they like in a more distant space. So you know, you have to take the silver linings where you can get them.
Derek Horn
Totally Yeah, I've talked about this in a previous episode of the podcast, but I work with a volunteer for an organization called Out for Undergrad and we do conferences for LGBTQ undergrad students. And so much of what we do is based around this in-person conference model, and like many other things this year, we had to go virtual this past fall for our conferences, and that was one silver lining that I saw as well as in these kind of sessions where we're encouraging students to dig deep and we paired them with mentors that could guide the small groups through discussions, we were finding that it actually was kind of people, from my perspective, I think people did open up a little more because they are in a kind of cocoon in a way and most most of them were in spaces they felt safe and comfortable in. And also if they want they there was also kind of we gave them these different levels of to engage, if they wanted to have their camera off, they could they could engage with text. So it was it interesting to see how the technology unlocked. There's different ways of engaging, that are a little more nuanced than just sitting in a conference room looking at a bunch of faces.
Susan X Jane
And it's all information, you know, people who are like, you know, lions in social interactions, always very confident and and out there. They're always good in person, and they're good online. But people that are quieter, there are other spaces for them to step into, that I think are not as easily afforded to in person. Now, that being said, there's a lot of vibes and energy that we miss not being in-person. But there are benefits to both, you know, I don't know, haven't you been in one of those rooms? Like you're in a Zoom room with people in there all around the world? And that kind of stuff is really easy now to like, connecting across time and space seems easier as well. So that's kind of nice, too.
Derek Horn
For you personally, have you faced any mental health challenges during this court quarantine period and half of you coped with them?
Susan X Jane
Yeah, I mean, I think it's been such a rollercoaster of a year. And I think that it has been a challenging year, for sure, for sure. And, you know, I do a lot of pretty good self-care, I like to remain pretty stable and reflective person, I'm adapt, I'm a Daoist, so I like to be in a kind of like a pretty chill space. And this has not been that year. So I think that the challenges, you know, really bring up all of these feelings. And for me, I feel like, it's been like cleaning up a old room, I feel like I'm scraping away all the layers of wallpaper and paint, all of the emotional baggage I've carried, the year has squeezed it out of me. And so I've tried to use the space, all of this space created by the world being a little bit more quiet or having less time spent in commutes. You know, just really reflecting on that and trying to be in what my friend Rick and I call the "emo gym" where you really have to like work on your emotional processes. And like when you're sad, to not try to sourdough bread it away. But to think about why am I sad? And what does that mean? And how do I deal with my sadness? And then, in the summer, so much anger and so much grief over what was happening around race. And it's like, how do you how do you meet that? How do you not just, you know, try to self care in a way but how do you learn and look at it squarely and say like, what does this mean to me? So it's a lot of emotions.
And I think that, for me, I really like nature, that makes me feel balanced. Like whatever makes you feel balanced, you know, is what I think you should try to get some time in. I have a pandemic puppy. So that's been a real joy and a pleasure and also something that takes me on my emotional journey because If you have a pandemic puppy, you know it's a process. And so, you know, I try to ride the roller coaster and not not act like it's not happening, but to lean into the emotions as much as I can. And then to when I start to feel really overwhelmed, to step back, and I find myself doing that, like, at some point in the year, it was like, hourly process, you know, just try to ride that into some place of stability, and I live alone. So I think for anybody out there that's listening that lives alone. You know, like, it's a process, you know, you're and you're in it by yourself, you know, so when you're watching the nightly news, and you're looking at all of this horrible stuff going on, like, how do you bounce that off of other people, you know, like, just this week as they were storming the Capitol, I called someone I was like, I just need someone to watch it with, like, what the hell is happening? I need somebody else that can witness that. So that I think is challenging, too. But I like to be alone. So it's, it's been nice for me. And I also recognize it's a lot of time for people that really are struggling with those issues.
Derek Horn
Right. Yeah, I think that's a common theme that has popped up in these conversations that I've been having with people that, be it they live alone, live with a partner live with roommates. Regardless, it's the kind of like, since our lives have been uprooted, that people are left with so much time and so much space to one deal with the current crises that we are faced with, but also some of these things they may have been also like kind of leaving unchecked, unaddressed kind of being forced to contend with that. And in this, this period of being inside.
Susan X Jane
Your anger and your grief and your sadness. Those are also deeply rooted in your own life experience. So when when you pull that trigger of what's happening in the news of the day, the bullet is something that has been loaded into your life for a long time. And so I found for me, you know, and as you said, in some of your other podcasts as well, hearing it from other people, like, it brings up all of this stuff like this summer, all of the anger around George Floyd, that was a new anger. That was really, really old anger. So like, how do you meet that? How do you sit with it? And maybe that was what the space of the year was, is to give you that place to meet those really heavy feelings that you can meet, you know, on the train ride home.
Derek Horn
Yeah, so I guess I guess segueing into this next section about the racial reckoning that we saw this past year, and we also talked about how that kind of that moment that you knew that the pandemic was something that was a big deal. What was the moment that you knew that the response to the George Floyd killing was different than the other flashpoints of the Black Lives Matter movement?
Susan X Jane
Right away, right away, right away. It wasn't so much that there was a response, because let's be honest, stuff happens all the time. But I think there was this confluence of First, it is horrific for Black people to be killed by the police. And for us to be able to witness it happen, is horrific. And then for it to happen at a time when we had been repeating like a mantra for months, we're all in this together. And so people were like, wait, Black people are being killed by the police and we're all in this together and that was like the thing that really, I think, brought more people to the table. I think, for me, it was Ahmaud Arbery and Breonna Taylor and George Floyd, when it was the run up, it was that this has been a continuous line. And even in this moment, when we're all supposed to be banding together, that this is what we as Black people are getting. So you know, I think it's different for different people. But it was just all of these factors. And then you know, instantly, you know, you could see when the protests broke out, that it was gonna be big, because they were everywhere right away. It was like, you know, if you if you dropped a match in a room full of gasoline, and it just shoots to all corners of the room. And so it felt different. It was prolonged, and that felt different. I mean, sadly, I think it's a cycle that we go through of, we protest, people feel really good about the protest feel good about saying we don't like this, but then is there the long term ability to keep the work going. So that's the challenge that we're still in now.
Derek Horn
And I know, I know, that's something that was so visceral about that animation. Others, but with George Floyd in particular, it was the whole ordeal was played out on camera. I think that so much of that reaction was just the fact that people were able to view that and see that. And I know that to an extent that that is activating to some people, but at the same time, it is traumatizing to others to see this death and act of violence on their their social media feeds. What are your thoughts about kind of seeing about people sharing those videos, and kind of the role that the role that they play in and as well as kind of some of those drawbacks as well?
Susan X Jane
Again, just like what brings people to that moment, different people need different things to call them in, I think it is, in the long run, it is a flaw that we need to see people die violently to be moved. That is something that is wrong with us. And I feel like, you know, tying it even to what we saw in the Capitol Building. If we were honest, underneath it, I think there's a perverse hunger that we like it. Like we like to watch death, look at the top TV shows, the top podcasts, we love to watch murder. We love to watch it. And it's hard for us to let in that it's real, and it has real consequences. And so it has to be big, and it has to be juicy. It has to be huge production, to even move us. And that's something that is wrong with our culture. Now, that being said, without the video, people would not have been moved to act. And it was the length of time to hear somebody begging for their like it was, you know what it was it was the hand in the pocket. It was the casualness with which white supremacy took up its position, you know, the same thing as we saw in the capital, like, people take it like, it is a performance of violence, both in the George Floyd video and in what we saw in the Capitol. There's no reason behind it, you know? Like that officer is not trying to get to anything, he is just performing an act to display to other people the power that he has, and for some reason, we keep looking at those performances, and they are not enough to push us to act. And I think it's because there is a part of the culture that just likes the performance.
Derek Horn
Right.
Susan X Jane
That's dark.
Derek Horn
It is. And I mean, also, in both the George Floyd and that the capital, insurrection there are these just as important these other parties that are standing idly by that could intervene but are choosing not to. And I think that that is also a major indictment of our system. And the reasons why we haven't seen any sort of systemic changes because there's so many of these other people that they could say, "Oh, my knee wasn't on his neck", but you have the power to take it off, or stop it from occurring.
Susan X Jane
So many of us saw like the one video that was taken from the angle where we're seeing Officer Chauvin only with his knee on the neck. But the videos and images taken from the back of the scene. There are three other people on him right there, like within breathing space, they can feel his breath leaking out of him into the pavement, and they do nothing. And and I think we see the same thing with you know, I watched police in the Capitol watch like, "oh there they go. I guess that's what happens."
Derek Horn
Taking selfies with some of them...
Susan X Jane
Yeah, that power of white supremacy to stop people to silence them to keep them from acting, when they're acting is what gets them into alignment with their humanity. Like you said, I think it's remarkable because it It asks all of us to think about, well, where am I in the scene? I may not be the person with the knee on the neck. But am I also just watching and letting it happen?
Derek Horn
Right. So and then out as a result of that, in addition to the protests, obviously, I think that that is the response to the George Floyd killing set off this domino reaction and forced pretty much every aspect of life, including corporate culture, to look inward and start to investigate in which ways they're upholding white supremacy in subtle and not so subtle ways. And that's where I think programs like yours come in, to kind of help people take stock of what situations that they're in and help them work towards something better. And what ways, if any, did you sort of adjust your curriculum in the wake of the goings on of this summer?
Susan X Jane
I think there's no quarter for slow walking this work, you just have to say to people, this is what it is. I think we're in a period now there has been so much amazing scholarship and writing and work that has been done around history. Even just in the last couple of decades, there are things that we knew that weren't known, you know, a few decades ago as common knowledge, that race is not genetic at all, something that for the whole 20th century people argued about. Now we know it's absolutely not true. So we're dealing with social systems. And there's been so much great scholarship excavating the history of how did we get here, and people need to know that we live in a culture that is based on white supremacist ideology. And, you know, we need to get to be able to say that, meet our feelings so that we can talk about it. But get past being in our feeling stage. You know, I feel like America is always in this like, "oh my God, is it happening for hundreds of years?" Like, yeah, not only is it happening, this is the design, if we want something different, we have to get to a different design. So I think, you know, in the moment, especially initially, people were wanting to make sense of the moment. And so in the beginning, I was having a lot of conversations with groups that were really just trying to process together and to come together and, and to have some feelings about it. And in that moment, I thought, well, what should I say? And I thought, well, I'm going to say what's really true, which is that this is a part of the system. And we have to really look at that this is who we are, you know, to answer Joe Biden's statements earlier this week, this is America, this is America, this is this is how the system was designed. And now that we see it, we can make it the America that we were promised in America where people really can be treated equally. So I think what changed for me was gloves off, I'm going to tell you very directly, it's not about, you know, your unconscious bias, it's about the conscious bias, it's about the systems, it's about the way that you drag it into your daily business, and choose not to bring your awareness to it. And the history behind that. So I'm just trying to say to people very directly what it is and what it isn't, so that they can move to action more quickly.
Derek Horn
Yeah, and one of the, my office, we went through a few of your sessions, and one of the things that I think was most powerful about it as the way you told this, you painted this narrative of American history, and how we got to this point, and then from there start to examine the ways in which this history of violence has filtered its way through our corporate cultures, and just even just business norms that we think are completely innocuous, the ways that they reinforce white supremacy. So obviously, those are those the trainings you're doing are really important to start to dismantle that and help people identify those patterns. How do you see trainings like the ones that you do fit into that broader picture of racial justice?
Susan X Jane
I think you have to begin to look at things more clearly and have a shared story about it. So I think, especially last year, and in the trainings I did with your group, which are really such a great group to work with, is just for people to together come to that conversation from all the different points that they may be at. For some of us, this is our life, this is not anything new or shocking. And the fact that it's new or shocking, can be really frustrating that you have to kind of roll the rock up the hill, every time somebody gets shot. For other people, it, they're just bringing their awareness to it. And they need a space to be able to make that happen. And to say like, no shame, no guilt, we don't want to stop in our own feelings, we want to move through them so that we can move together. So I feel like I really am trying to get people to come to some shared understanding that they can begin to struggle through together because it will be different for each person where their place in the journey is. But if people can come into a relationship with those around them, to begin to do that work, and starting and meeting themselves wherever they are, and then taking action on a regular basis, that's what we can all do. And we all have to do what we can, we all have to mow our own lawn, then get together with our neighbors and make sure that the whole area looks great. And put those areas together bigger and bigger. Just like as we think about with the elections, it's really like census block by census block district by district, working together with people around us to to shift the way that we think about power to use it more equally.
Derek Horn
Right. And I think that programs like yours, I think they're kind of that spark, that get people to start thinking about things differently and hopefully make change elsewhere in their lives. Because by no means can, our long session or a couple of them completely overhaul our systems or ways of being, it really requires us to look inward and start to interrogate and in mixing change inward. It's not like you can come in and kind of dump this information into people's heads and then emerge this transformed, being if that makes any sense.
Susan X Jane
Now, and we all have our own journey, and it's just this kind of like, well, what if, what if it isn't about, you know, people's opinions, but it's about the way that we use power? I think the power analysis is so often left out. And you know, people say, Well, you know, they're both sides, there are other opinions, you know, but we really can actually traced the way the power operates. And that's what we're talking about here is a story that was the spark of America, this story about some people should have more power than others. If we want to have a country that's equal, we have to really go all the way back and dismantle that story. And for a lot of people, that feels very jarring, because you're asking them to change fundamental ideas about what they thought was happening in the reality that they've operated in their whole life. And so you have to invite people into the space, and then people have to be willing to do the work. And the work is to really think, day by day, what are the ways that I am giving a pass to white supremacy? What are the ways that I've pushed for different ways of power-sharing, and it's so granular, that I think, you know, people sometimes want it to be this big aha, like, somebody's just gonna strap on their cape, and everything's gonna be fixed, like you said, we're going to take this damaged person, and in one hour, they're going to be like, oh, but it's like, you're a human being. And you live in a culture where power is unequally assigned, based on race that is happening, what are you going to do about it, in terms of how you relate to other people, what kind of rules you live by what kind of products and services you put out into the world, with every day you're deciding to reproduce that or to begin to subvert that to create ways for power-sharing to be equal? That is not something you can do in an hour, but the invitation can be extended.
Derek Horn
Right. One of the most fascinating things that you shared with us was this kind of List of characteristics of white-centric workplaces that people like might not pick up on, but it can be harmful. Do you have a couple of those you could share with us now?
Susan X Jane
Yeah, I think we often think about diversity as being about minority groups. And there's a lot of focus on thinking, and sometimes the thinking is not very good about what minority groups are, what they need, right. And what we need to do is be reflective of who are the people that are holding the power and distributing it and equally, and one of those habits. Some of the cultural elements of it, are this real focus on individuality, that it is the individual over the collective. Now that is harmful in dynamics of race, where people think, you know, it's kind of this manifest destiny that the white man is supposed to own the world, and he's this big hero that takes over.
That's so much of the myth of America, that hurts us from a race perspective, it also hurts us when we look at our politics, this idea that one, one individual is bigger than the constitution or the country, or that your right to not wear a mask is more important than the collective, who is now suffering from our inability to let go of our individuality. So that's one. Defensiveness. So an ability to hear a critique about race is almost non-existent, every time a big racial incident comes up. We're asking, is it or isn't it racism, rather than saying, okay, like, that's racism. So we have to get past that defensiveness, that can be really hard. And rather than being defensive about white supremacy, to not owning it so tightly, to let it go, you don't have to hold on to white supremacy, you can say, you know, what, if that's not cool, that's not for me. So getting past defensiveness and believing that there is a right way that there is one way and that way usually is the way of the dominant group. So you know, hegemonic thinking that everybody has to attend to the cultural norms. Like when you hear the phrase, well, that's just the way it is. You're using usually dealing with hegemonic ideology. And I think that's another thing that that real forced to buy in that compliance. The silencing of that compliance of well, you know, I think about like, you know, Mad Men, everybody's so uptight, you know, smoking and walking around and drinking themselves into oblivion, because no one was able to be authentically themselves. You know, because it's this uptightness, this idea of you have to be this one way, and everybody has to comply. So the things that make white culture not good for diversity, also make white culture not good for white people. We want to move to places where we really can extend ourselves into full humanity. So we have to think really carefully about what are the what's the culture of whiteness that's dominating in America? And what do we do about that, and I like the guy with the bull horns and the fur hat, like the Qanon shaman, that seems to me like a good image of that, that individuality that I will do whatever I want to do, no matter what, with no idea about how to be in connection with other people. And those things are damaging, like I said, both to people in marginalized groups, and also to people in the dominant group.
Derek Horn
Right. And I think that's something I mean, I've even seen this through, I'm just working with kind of recruiters and stuff and hearing about policies of various companies through my work with Out for Undergrad, it seems that a lot of not all, but it seems like there's kind of an approach to diversity in the workplace that you kind of start with this base, and in this case, kind of a white base, and then you're kind of adding other people into the mix to make sure you're checking all the boxes that you want. But in reality, it's I think, more about re-hauling your entire way of being to make sure that you're integrating these diverse people from the get go when you're building new teams and staffing projects and things like that. So I think that that's been something that has been interesting for me to be reflecting on this year.
Susan X Jane
Yeah, I think there is a well-meaning desire to make sure that people that there's diversity, like you said, kind of the box-checking, we want to make sure there are different people here. And sometimes it even extends to we want to make sure we're giving opportunity to other people. And that still really positions the "we" is having the power, we have the power, and we're going to extend an opportunity. And another question is, do we have the perspective at the table that we need to do our best work? And that's not about "bringing them into us", but about expanding the "us". Because we're not right unless we have that different perspective at the table.
And I think that that, that is difficult for a lot of companies to take, because it's a step back in your power of saying maybe we're not where we need to be, maybe it's not about them not being in the right place. But maybe we're not in the right place. And we have to look at how do we use those voices. And I think if you don't have them, you don't know what you're missing. But we know that diverse teams with different points of view are better at solving problems. They're better at being successful, they're better being profitable. So we know there are all these benefits. But it is difficult to engage with people across those boundaries if you're not used to doing that. And that's not on them. Because those that are in marginalized groups, we cross the boundaries all the time. That's how we get to work. That's how we get into different places in the community, you know, because we're always dealing with a dominant group. But really to take that humble step to look back and say, "What do I need? How can I be made richer? How can I be made more successful by being in real connection?"
Derek Horn
Right. So something that I think, and you mentioned this before, something that I think is really central to this discourse about dismantling white supremacy, whether it's either outright or it's more of the subtext, is this notion of shame. And I think that shame comes to life when people are reflecting on their past comments or actions or the shame of not doing enough or being a passive bystander. What he do you think that shame is ever useful in these discussions? Or do you think it can do more harm than good?
Susan X Jane
Yes, yes, yes? I mean, a little bit of shame. lets you know, when you're moving in the wrong direction. So shame is like a little alert system to be like you're you're out of alignment with your own integrity. So when shame is ringing, something's you know, out of alignment, it tells you "Okay, all right, you have to fix it." Just like an alarm, you don't freak out. You just attend to the alarm and do what needs to be done. A lot of shame can feel very insurmountable for people. But the problem is, when we center shame in conversations about marginalized people, we center the people that have upheld the status quo. So if you are the person you're like, "Oh, I feel bad, that I am attached to the side that is the oppressor". You know. And it's like, well, then you have a choice, and you have to begin to make that choice. And, you know, I think people need to meet their shame because it's hard to get over, you feel like you did a bad thing.
But, you know, we didn't create this ideology, but we choose each day our desire to align with it or not. And that means doing the things that are needed are required to make sure that communities are equitable. So if your shame moves you to action in that way, I think that's great. But a lot of times, I think it can be very crippling, and people need to sit with it, but not give themselves too much permission to dig into it. Because on the other side of shame, for people who are victims of this is anger and pain and grief. And, you know, we don't want to put those on a scale and try to weigh them against each other. And we also don't want to center people who have benefited from an ideological system. We want to be able to move past that, so we can make sure that we stopped doing the harm that's creating the shame.
Derek Horn
Yeah, I think I've heard anecdotes, numerous anecdotes, over the past few months, be it from friends, or even just people I follow online - Black folks- about how their phones are filled with these messaging messages from their well-meaning white friends like trying to, in many ways, I think, absolve them of their white guilt. And I think that that, from my perspective, it seems like one of those ways in which the shame does more harm than good when you're putting it on the shoulders of your Black friends to try and help you clean your conscience of this when in reality, I think that I think folks should be taking that shame or guilt or whatever feeling they're feeling and really looking inward and finding ways that they can fight or undo the things that they're doing, or hardwired to do, rather than looking for this kind of get out of jail free card and have their friend pat them on the back as a good white person.
Susan X Jane
Yeah, no, for sure there was a lot of those calls going around. And on the one hand, it's like you want to be empathetic, because people are bringing their awareness to something and it's like, you know, bring them to me, I'm the professional, that's my job to empathize with that and to help you move past that into the work, you know, but in terms of those calls on a personal level, you know, we were all Black before George Floyd was killed, and we knew he was, you know, and when people would say "I wasn't aware", it was like, so were you not aware when it was Mike Brown? Because that was just five years ago. And you were an adult? Then we knew each other then yeah, like, was it? Was it Tamir Rice? Was it all the way back when George Zimmerman was acquitted? Did you feel this then? So it's like, it's happening all the time. And then, in last year, before George Floyd was killed, thousands of black Americans were killed by COVID. And, you know, we say we thank essential workers as we throw Black and Brown bodies at the problem and stay home and don't have to deal with it. So, we were getting to this point, we were talking about reopening, but we hadn't done anything to really protect the communities that were most harmed by this. So, so there was plenty of shame to go around.
And so to say to your Black friend, "I wasn't paying attention before now" is not a message that was going to be met with a lot of empathy, especially when we are grieving. You know, like, this was something that is actively happening right now, you know, like, even this year, Jacob Blake, already, those cops will not face charges for shooting him in the back. And then and the next day, we see these fools urinating on the Capitol, and walking away to go eat at Olive Garden and get on a plane and spread COVID to the 50 states, like so it's always happening. And so to bring your shame in that moment, is to center yourself as the victim and that's a hard thing to find empathy for. You have to bring it to places like a class or workshop where that person is choosing to step into that place and hold those emotions with you. But your friend that you don't talk about it with, those were some hard times and there were some hurt feelings around those calls.
Derek Horn
So we've mentioned it several times already, but the insurrection that we watched on TV at the US Capitol this week: do you have any reflections on that that you'd like to share?
Susan X Jane
I think we have to recognize that we have a serious problem with white nationalism in this country. Yeah, they are the primary terrorist group that have committed attacks since September 11th, which is a 17 years ago. So for now, well over a decade, we have been being attacked from the inside by domestic terrorists. The FBI knows it. Groups that track hate groups know it. I live outside of Boston on the North Shore, and there's a little town here called Swampscott, where I'm from, and, and they have a hate group that's there every week outside the governor's house because the governor of Massachusetts lives in that town. Confederate flags, violent assaults. So this is what has been happening in this country, not just for four years, but really for several hundred years, but especially in the last few decades, like white nationalism is on the rise. And when we don't attend to it, it explodes. And I feel like there was this big, you know, brouhaha, and then the next day, people are debating, you know, well, should this guy remain in office, they could have taken a vote that night. And the will is just not there to hold people accountable for this behavior. And one thing I learned from my pandemic puppy is behavior rewarded is behavior repeated. And when you get to break the country, and walk away and live to run again, then that is behavior that will be repeated. And we see they bombed the Capitol, they set off pipe bombs, they killed a police officer, if that happened at a Black Lives Matter protest, I hate to think what would have happened, it would have been like the purge across the country, you know?
Back, in I think it was in the late 80s in Boston, there was a case called the Charles Stewart case, where this white guy Charles Stewart, shot his pregnant wife while they were coming home from a birthing class at a hospital in Boston. So he shot her and he shot himself. And he said that a Black man came up to the car and shot them while they were in a neighborhood of Mission Hill. Now, because this white man said this happened, and it was a pregnant woman, she died, the baby was alive for a little while the baby died. It was a horrible case. They turned Mission Hill and Roxbury out, they arrested Black men, they pulled people out of their job place, someone I know there was a youth worker was with his young people where the police came in and frisked him in front of his young people. They turn those neighborhoods out. And when we watched what happens this week, we can see the difference between what the police did last year and what they did. Now, the difference in consequences for behavior. And it is just it's a performance of power.
Here's the other thing that made me mad, I know I'm jumping around. But a lot of big feelings about this. They didn't even want anything. Like they went in with their flags, they threw stuff around, and they destroyed stuff. But they weren't asking for anything. There was no demand, there was no "Hey, we want to sit with the representatives to make our case, we want to be able to move the ball forward." All they wanted to do was to destroy stuff, and to show that they could do that. And the President is watching from a bunker while they play disco music in the background. That should not go unaddressed.
Derek Horn
and then saying "I love you. You're very special." That was something.
Susan X Jane
and it's like, that's that's what it is. So when when people say oh, I'm shocked, I can't believe it. You know, "very fine people", this isn't even the first time so you know that that's that's what's happening and we really have to attend to it or it's gonna raise its head again.
Derek Horn
No, and it's it's one of the most disgusting things that I saw was somebody comparing his line from over the summer when he said, "when the when the looting starts, the shooting starts". And then contrasting that with his message to his supporters that ransacked the Capitol is just like... there's no words to just express how messed up that is.
Susan X Jane
It is exactly what it is. I mean, "when the looting starts," that was somebody else that was that that was trying to foment rebellion years ago. So it is decade after decade. We just keep going around because the lesson keeps coming for it. And we're not listening. And the lesson is, you know, if you don't get into some place of solidarity, you cannot function as a democracy.
Derek Horn
Yeah, and I think that that's one of those things that people have been pointing out over the past few days is when we find ourselves saying "this is not America," like every other week then gets to a point where we have to stop for a second and think okay, this kind of is America. What are we going to do about it...
Susan X Jane
It is absolutely America.
Derek Horn
I think that so many people in the quote-unquote "resistance" over the past four or five years, are treating Trump as though he's this aberration and kind of this unique threat when in reality, it's been this Republican party that has been laying the foundation for someone like him over the past few decades. And Trump, Trump is leaving in a few days on the 20th. But all these people that helped enable him are not going anywhere. You have people like Ted Cruz, and Hawley, who are very clearly indicating that they are eager to take his mantle and absorb his supporters. And even though these people most likely know better, it's a very cynical contempt that they have for their their voters and supporters that they think that this is they need to act in this way to hold the grip on power. It's just really disgusting. And I that's one thing I am a little worried about, to be honest with Joe Biden is for all of this talk about moving on and unity, it's I hope that it's not moving on without reflection, just because if if we just move on and turn a page for the sake of moving on, then we're just setting ourselves up for it to happen again, and likely even worse.
Susan X Jane
Yeah, I was very worried when he came out and said "this is not America." It drove me back to my blog, I've been working on a piece called This is America, it's so squarely America, it's so squarely America. And if you can't face it, you can't fix it, you know? So it's the beginning of the year Look, a little Quarantine Fifteen, like everybody else did. If I don't get on the scale, I don't know where I'm at. You've got to weigh it out and call it exactly what it is in order to be able to fix anything. And to say we don't have a problem with white nationalism, we do! That we don't have that 75 million Americans said yes to this. And that even in this moment, and having seen what they've seen which the rest of the world sees, our reputation around the world is now trashed, and people still faced would still vote for that, if given the chance again, you know, so we have to think about, well, this is America. Why is it this way? Where is it coming from? And you know, how do we get to a place where we actually can be a country where people are treated equally, because like you said, if Joe Biden just wants us to all get along,
I'm down to get along with anybody that wants to make sure that people are treated equally. But if you don't think that, we're gonna fight, right, it's gonna, and it's gonna be a fight. It's not going to be any coming to the center. I can't come to the center with people who do not believe in my humanity. I can't do that. And so if people can't be grounded and doing the right thing, you know, then that's not okay. I mean, this, the President is still walking around with the nuclear football. And that was okay. You know, that's how that's not acceptable. It's not acceptable.
Derek Horn
I think that's been one of the most frustrating things over the past five years or so is seeing this man run on all these these grievances, and using overt racism and bigotry and all this stuff, and ascending to power because of that. And so many of these things, people are like, "Oh, it's just politics. Can't we just agree to disagree" and treating it as though it's just a minor disagreement over tax code or something? Like bureaucratic politics like that, when in reality, it's like, no, it's like, these are, this is literal life and death. And for you to be able to treat politics like it's a parlor game, just is a massive show of privilege.
Susan X Jane
It is. Politics is power. So like, replace that, you know, oh, it's just power. What is power matter? No, power is everything. You know, we try to get money or jobs or education so that we can have the power to do what we want to do. It's who you love, where you live, how you can marry, how you can raise your family or how you can be connected. It's, you know, for Black people, it's like, can you lay in your bed at night and sleep without thinking that they can come in and shoot you, you know? It's like, you can't even lay down and sleep in your bed in your home. You know, so to see the the differences between power, I would love to see a bridge built between people to bring them into connection. But people who don't believe in the humanity of Black and Brown people, of people of different gender or sexual orientations, people of different countries, unless they're willing to come to a place where they can respect people's humanity, that's not a bridge that needs to be built. We need to work with people who want to make this the country that we want. And other people need to be held accountable when their behavior is out of line and against the rules and illegal.
Derek Horn
Yeah. I know, we discussed some of our apprehensions about the incoming administration. But is there anything that you're optimistic for in the Biden administration, and especially now that we have the Democrats have taken control of the Senate?
Susan X Jane
First, Stacey Abrams, can we just take and say, oh, what an amazing, amazing job she has done. So it's interesting that they flipped the senate the same day, because if they hadn't flipped the Senate, and that had happened, I think we all would be quite in our cups right now very depressed. So there's hope, you know, there's always hope. And that makes me feel good. I, I think there he has a diverse cabinet. And so hopefully, that means that we will have all those different perspectives, that'll get us some, to some new ways of thinking. There is a willingness to engage in issues that hasn't been for a while, so that feels good. I mean, I felt like we were on the edge of existential dread, I don't know what another Trump term would have looked like. So it's much better than that. We have the Squad up there holding everybody's feet to the fire. So really glad to see that. So I feel hopeful. But what we have to do is not want to rush back to a normal, because the normal that we have, you know, normal is just a snapshot of the moment, of where the energy is at that moment. It's not good right now. And so returning through the cycle, back to a place where we act like everything's fine. We can't do that anymore.
You know, and people ask a lot like, well, is this attention about diversity going to continue, as a member of a marginalized group, I would like my rights, I'm not going to not want my rights, I'm not going to not people to be treated fairly, that's not ever going to happen for me. So we have to attend to the issues that we have. But I hope have hope that we can do that. I mean, we have been giving a very clear look at our country. And it's really not good, like that January 1st step on the scale, you're like, That's not good. And, you know, knowing who you are, and what you are, is a place where you can take action from. And so I hope that people are moved to action. And it was a good reminder that 2021 is in our hands. It's n ot in the cards, it's in our hands.
Derek Horn
That's a great way to think about it. What does your media diet look like and do you have anything to recommend to listeners?
Susan X Jane
I mix it up. I do a lot of doom scrolling, I'll admit I do a lot of doom scrolling. I read, you know, the Times and the Post and the LA Times and that stuff. I watched probably too much cable news. I watch some Fox News, which sometimes feels like an exercise in dread. But I think it's good to know, what's the narrative on the other side? Yeah, like, what is it that is happening because, you know, you can be in your own echo chamber. And sometimes I find myself in periods of time, not consuming a media diet of the media outlets that I aligned with most because I find then I get too into my own bias. So so I'll watch a lot of CNN because I can see their bias. And I can see where they're maybe a bit wonky, you know, so they're not super progressive. So I am not just listening to my own opinion. And like I said, I watched, you know, news on the right as well, which is, you know, sometimes like a Vulcan mind-meld trying to figure out the narrative. But I will say this, it is a comprehensive narrative. So if you are not consuming multiple forms of media, if you're only consuming right-wing media, I can see why people can't think their way out of it, because it is such a comprehensive narrative. But it is, to my mind, materially and factually incorrect. But it's good to know what people are doing. So I think mixing it up and getting a nice variety of it is something that I would recommend.
And then also managing your diet. I have time periods where I'm like, Alright, I need to not be on this all the time. And other time periods where I really want to make sure that I'm consuming as much as possible because there's a lot of information to wade through.
Derek Horn
Right. Yeah, something that I do. is I don't, I'm not sitting watching Fox News. But I do follow them on Facebook and Twitter as well as like Breitbart and a couple of these other right-wing sources, just to see what they're putting out and kind of the conversations that are happening in the comment section. And I do have to say it is kind of it is very concerning seeing some of those comments and had like, so many of these people just have their worldview based in lies and mistruths and things like that. And it is really concerning that in the wake of the election, I think, specifically, I think, Fox News had called Arizona, for Biden, I think, on election night. And that, I think, was the moment that I started to see these tides turn against Fox News. And you have these people get enraged with them, saying that they're liberal communists and all this bullshit. And then also, them then break away from Fox News and go to these other wacko sources like Newsmax and OAN that are even more on the fringe, and just tell them what they want to hear. So that that is a very concerning trend.
Susan X Jane
It really, it should worry everybody, because that, like I said, one of the tenants of our white supremacist culture is that they get to define the world. So this idea of living in a simulacrum of your own narrative is very much at the center of white culture. And it's unbelievably dangerous, like people are living in complete parallel universes. When you consume those new sources. You're like, wow, like, people really believe there's a satanic cabal, like, they really believe that. And, and it's so crazy to my mind, how do I center myself in that, but then, you know, when people ask, "Well, how do you have conversations?" That that is a dialogue that is beyond my paygrade? You know, there's nothing I can say, and an hour, a day, that's going to move that person because they're getting so much information to support all of their beliefs that, you know, I wonder how do people come down off of this? You know, like they have been there in this alternative universe. And they just live there, you know. And we, we are not in the simulacrum, I think that was what the COVID-19 showed us is, we still live in a material world and the constraints of our physical universe are very much a part of the problems we face. So we can't afford for people to be living in an alternate universe. And I don't know, it's like some Jim Jones, like do you do a cult removal, or what happens when the cult is a cult of personality.
Derek Horn
And it is, I think one of the very reasons why we saw what happened when this week at the Capitol is these people, genuinely believing that Democrats were part of a satanic cult of pedophiles and all this nonsense, and they've really thought that they were righteously going to lead a revolution. And it's very concerning. One of the, one of the tweets that has been going around and I think has been cited by a few people is, I don't remember who it was from. But it was like, "well, that escalated steadily over the course of four years." Like people who have been paying attention could see this, very clearly telegraphed, and as shocking as it is to see, it's not necessarily surprising.
Susan X Jane
I said, when it was happening, right when it was happening, you know, I called a friend of mine, and I said, "Oh, my God, I can't believe it. Oh, my God." And then I paused. I was like, wait, remember when we went out to dinner? And we said, This is what was going to happen? It was like, we can see it coming. I have to say, I was actually a little stymied that it came so late, you know, I don't know if you recall. But I was saying with a lot of people like, "Hey, get ready, because there will be some unrest." And somebody said to me, when you said that, I thought that's crazy. And here we are, you know. So it's like if we know that that is the result at this moment. We know that 75 million people being governed by a government that they think stole the election, that is going to send more like an underground fire until it explodes.
So you know, we have to really get ahead of that and it's interesting how you know, especially thinking about being in marketing and design, how much it really is about storytelling. How much it really is about narrative structure, and using propaganda and information, just to reshape somebody's whole reality. And it's like media has so much power to shape what we think is happening, and we have not really done real well with thinking about how we use that power, and then, not to get too futuristic, but we stand on the edge of AI, deep fakes, all of the technology that is right ahead of us is going to mean our ability to really understand and see reality is going to be more challenged than ever before. There's going to be real difficulty in doing that nevermind, difficulty for people at the fringe. So I worry about how we tell stories. And I think that's so important. That's why I really love working with people who are in that field. Because we have so much power to help to push back against that narrative. Because it's everything. It's not just Trump on TV, it's the packaging in your cabinet, the commercials on your TV, the brands that you interact with, what is the story of what it means to be a human and who we are? That are all little opportunities to push back against that.
Derek Horn
I love that. And I think that that's one of the biggest opportunities that the Democratic Party and progressive movement as a whole has, is weaving together this, this story about the potential of what could be. I think, because we have all the power, like we have the the big ideas, we have the policies for the most part. And I think just because of the nature of Trump and his cronies, it's like so much of it as being on the defense that I think that that is potentially why that we didn't see as many gains as we would have liked to i n this past election. I think that there definitely is this opportunity there to weave this broader story about a more positive vision of the future. And I hope that that happens over the next few years.
Susan X Jane
I mean, even look at the protests, like they don't even know how to protest good, their music wasn't good. I didn't see any dancing at all. The signs were wack. And I feel like one thing that was really exciting about last summer is I think people could tune in on their TV and see that new world and be like, "Wow, that looks really fun. And that looks exciting. And I want to be a part of it." And it's not scary people come in and take my job. It's like people coming in with all of this vibrancy that really seems exciting, you know, and so I think it's a story that people will want to be a part of, if we can tell it right, then that's that invitation that people will want to accept.
Derek Horn
Totally. So wrapping things up. One day, hopefully, COVID-19 will be behind us. And we'll be back to some level of normalcy in the way that we can live our lives. When you're thinking of that day, what are you most hopeful for?
Susan X Jane
I'm really looking forward to seeing people I have talked to like hundreds of people that I have not seen in person. So I believe there's something really magical that happens when we're in proximity to each other. I do believe in that. So I'm really excited to meet so many of my new friends in person, I'm really looking forward to that. And I think that we have a lot of darkness ahead of us. And I hope that it is enough quiet time for us to ride that roller coaster into ourselves, to come out of it different. You know, I said to a friend of mine, last spring I was very Pollyanna "Oh, it's gonna be my Phoenix season, I'm going to transform and come out different". And then the world like mash my soul up and stomped me into the ground. I came out different, but it was a lot harder than I thought. And I feel like we're going into another dark season and I know now what that's like. So I'm like, alright, let me try to really focus on what is that future? How do we take that vibrancy from the streets, and just infuse it all throughout the worlds and the communities that we live in? And so I feel hopeful that it will feel like that, like, don't you think we all come out? It's gonna be so lit, it's gonna so lit! And I just feel like if we can be excited about the love that we can have when we're with each other again, that maybe that will be a light that will transform us towards connection.
Derek Horn
I love that. Well, thank you, Susan, it's been a pleasure talking to you today it was a great conversation.
Susan X Jane
I'm so glad that we got to talk about the insurrection. I said, you know, living by myself, I love to process it out, so thank you for being a receptacle for my thoughts.
Derek Horn
Of course, where can people find you online if they want to check out your work?
Susan X Jane
They can find me at SusanXJane.com. And I also have a blog that I'm going to try and fire up again, which is SMNTKS. You can look for some new writing this year or you can dig in the archives to all of my work. Around media and race. And you can always find me on Instagram, @SusanXJane. I love to find people on Instagram, @ me!
Derek Horn
Awesome. Well, thank you again, and hope to talk to you again soon.
Susan X Jane
Excellent. Thank you so much, I appreciate it. Bye!