Derek Horn
Welcome back to In These Uncertain Times, a podcast about creating and connecting in the midst of uncertainty. I’m your host, Derek Horn.
Did you know that there are transcripts available for each episode of this show? Head to derekjhorn.com/uncertaintimes to find text versions of every interview and catch up on episodes you may have missed.
Today’s guest, Michael Counter (he/him) joins for a great conversation about Queer art and honoring our elders while they’re still with us, he shares how his firm, counterCULTURE, is bringing Queer, Trans and POC narratives to life in the COVID era through projects like Legends of Drag, and together, we pine for the days of collective gatherings and shared experiences.
Michael Counter is a Black Queer United States Air Force veteran, entrepreneur, creative strategist, and Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion consultant. As founder of the creative boutique counterCULTURE, Michael amplifies narratives of often marginalized lived experiences to educate, entertain, and edify communities and businesses through signature collaborations, brand partnerships, and talent relations. Following an Honorable Discharge (Active Duty), Michael began his graduate studies at Southern Methodist University in Creative Writing (Masters), then Arts & Cultural Traditions (PhD), while also gaining years of experience in the public relations and advertising fields with brands like Nieman Marcus, Chipotle, Dallas Museum of Art, Southwestern Medical Foundation, and Michael’s Craft Stores. He currently lives in NYC with his partner and frequently collaborates with leading agencies, brands, and networks securing coverage and partnerships for Queer and multicultural projects as seen in VOGUE, Harper’s Bazaar, and Rolling Stone Magazine.
Michael and I have a great conversation about Queer art and honoring our elders while they’re still with us, how his firm, counterCULTURE, is bringing Queer, Trans and POC narratives to client projects in the COVID era, and together, we pine for the days of collective gatherings and shared experiences.
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Well, thank you, Michael, for joining on in these uncertain times. How are you doing?
Michael Counter
Doing well, Derek, thank you again for allowing me to join you on In These Uncertain Times!
Derek Horn
Thank you. So to get started, can you please introduce yourself to listeners in your own words?
Michael Counter
My name is Michael Counter. I am a Black queer Air Force veteran, storyteller,r and the founder of the creative boutique counterCULTURE, based here in New York City.
Derek Horn
So how has COVID forced you to adapt your process and kind of your work priorities?
Michael Counter
I think the pandemic, especially here in New York City, because we were hit so unbelievably terribly in the beginning of the outbreak. With my clients from with counterCULTURE, what I loved is that my clients, were immediately ready to try to figure out to be, you know, how to make it work for everyone, I did not for one second, have anyone saying like, “well, we're gonna see how it's going. We’d still like to meet in person.” Like the minute I think, maybe late February, when we were getting rumblings of it stateside, I was very fortunate to have a clientele who was like, “Hey, we've already closed our offices, we are not looking are expecting certain reports. Some of my clients actually took kind of a couple of weeks just to breathe and I work primarily with, with creatives and creative-led companies, so these are branding agencies, creative agencies, marketing, and advertising agencies. So, fortunately, they were able to, schedule in maybe two-ish, two to three weeks of just what is COVID? What does this mean for, general day to day operations, what safety precautions must be in place, I was really fortunate to see at least kind of, from a very hyperlocal standpoint, my New York City-based clients were, let's understand where we all are, and then move forward.
And then I work with clients all over the country. So folks over in LA, where, but this time last year, it was the Grammys, it was award season, and a lot of really cool entertainment shows we know and love, were getting back to their production schedule, as usual, and things halted. Even there on the west coast, we had folks who were like we're gonna put a pin in it this isn't a “no, we don't need your services,” this isn’t a “we're shutting down altogether, give us a break.” And so I really just appreciate the fact that everyone literally took a breath, no pun intended. And, to me, that was the biggest, just there was an understanding that the world was changing, we needed to understand in a collective push to figure it out in the most efficient and most compassionate, I think. For me, I work remotely, primarily or virtually, anyway, so it wasn't counterCULTURE, we didn't necessarily need to, like shut doors or where people needed to be? Our thing was just how can we support our clients with their timetable? In the most, compassion, because folks literally began to pass away, as early as March, April, which was really, really sad. But we, we were fortunate to be able to make it through. And I think, if anything, the compassion and just attention to the humanity of working in the industry was the most, to me, the most beneficial thing about operations so far in the past year or so.
Derek Horn
Totally, yeah, I think that it's funny, there was probably about a year ago, now give or take, and in January, when we were starting to get these rumblings and kind of this was on the horizon. But I do remember back in March, it was kind of this, despite all of that, it was like, still kind of felt like it hit us out of nowhere. And there was that kind of week or two, where everybody was kind of discombobulated and getting their bearings of Okay, what is this new completely virtual world we're working in look like? What are kind of the new norms and things like that, that we're going to be working with?
Michael Counter
Yeah, I think primarily with kind of the agency experience or design branding agencies, were already kind of used to using certain kind of apps and platforms to stay connected even, even doing brainstorms, everyone's in the office, but we're using, virtual whiteboards and different project tracking system. So it wasn't as if we didn't have the tools, I think we just needed to figure out if we could do all of it in our various time zones and managing deadlines and those kinds of things. So it's, human ingenuity. And we were able to, innovate and iterate and do all the things that we say we do in our mission statements or in our company taglines, and do it in real-time, under some of the most unbelievable circumstances and pressures.
Derek Horn
Totally. So it sounds like counterCULTURE has been very supportive and accommodating to your clients through this period. But what types of points of view can counterCULTURE bring to clients that other firms can’t?
Michael Counter
I love this question. Because I again, I'm a Black queer Air Force veteran and none of these things are supposed to exist in the same spot, so being the founder, being at the forefront, we are a Black-owned, queer-owned, veteran-owned business, and to be able to bring the perspectives and the sensitivities from kind of my lived experience, just by kind of being chief executive, but then to also recognize that as we witnessed last year, as we were trying to figure out how to work within the constraints or under the constraints of COVID. It brought up a lot of like, workplace issues that,, that we saw, power dynamics, how companies had previously been supporting their employees, and their clients. Folks who said that they were very much supportive of marginalized groups, minorities, women, POC, queer folks, queer and trans people, you actually had to begin to see how your walk matched your talk. And when it comes to counterCULTURE, yes, the kind of commander in chief, myself, my identity markers, of course, check certain boxes, but my lived experience, and the stories and things that I look to the narratives rather that I look to amplify through the work that we do, really is at the center of what we do differently, I like to say that at counterCULTURE, we connect differently, we connect the dots differently, we have an opportunity in leveraging queer, trans and POC talent in the way that we do to not only simply support creative agencies’ or branding agencies’, business development, and bring on new projects that they may not be able to have access to. Because I mean, as you know, working in the industry, if you are working your day today, everyone wants to design everyone wants to print and you want to do the job you've been hired to do. And we all have the pressures of bringing on that next great project. And then we are now seeing folks sincerely or just from a money grab standpoint, do want to participate in what is current, and what's current is people from marginalized groups, queer folks, trans folks, our voices are being heard in new and different ways. We're tackling different topics politically, socio-culturally, digitally, and doing so in really creative ways. Your kind of run of the mill, corporate agency or corporate brand, they were not built to recognize us. So finding our narratives as they matriculate through the system, by the time it gets to CMO or to even getting a product launch or an activation out to the public. It's our stories have been distilled, or it's not even about us, so with counterCULTURE, we have an opportunity to not only bring new business new narratives to the table, we can also bring the unique talent, we can bring the queer folks, our queer and trans folks to the table to actually showcase their talent and to be able to, elevate a company's mission or their brand vision, using the nuances of our experience, and then to also be able to provide the creative strategy. We bring on a really cool project, that's great, we can flesh it out with these different perspectives.
And then if you don't have the bandwidth to execute this really amazing work that we're bringing to you, counterCULTURE can also find the talent. We can recruit the proper talent to help you flesh out your dream. And help you get your project out on time whether Freelancer full time and so it's really about creating sustainable systems that not only support corporate world, we’re not simply plugging in the diversity hire into, into a company to simply say, like, we've hit our quota, we have our Black people, we have our Brown people, we have our queer folks. So of course, we're doing that kind of work. That's only a part of the equation. With counterCULTURE, what we love to see happen is that because we work with creative-led companies, and helping them expand their, their talent pool with queer and POC talent, we also know that they're very entrepreneurial, queer folks and POCs in the industry, are folks looking to break into the industry, and we should support them too. So instead of simply doing one part of our job and recruiting great marginalized talent and helping these brands meet their quota and flesh out their teams, we're able to put funding back into creative-led projects by queer, queer trans POC creators. And so I'm really excited about some of the projects that we are producing in-house via counterCULTURE that are also being supported through some of the other talent recruitment and business development and creative strategy things that we're doing for our clients.
Derek Horn
I love that. And one of the words that stuck out to me that you said is this idea of sustainability. So I know like when it comes to featuring queer artists, it's oftentimes they’re rolled out for Pride Month in the month of June, you see all over these brand activations and things and then the rest of the 11 months, you don't really hear from them when, surprise, Queer people exist. Queer people exist 365 days a year. And I would even same to an extent I think over the summer with we saw the Black Lives Matter movement, and it's like these things, they're not trends, they're, it's move, it's a movement towards progress. And that's for societies moving so you cannot treat it as this kind of bandwagon for you to hop on for whenever things are in the headlines. This is the way that the world is moving. So either jump on or you get left behind.
Michael Counter
Yeah, I think you mentioned getting left behind. I think that one of the really wonderful things, it may be just kind of where we are with social media, but I love the fact that COVID was hitting the protests and the uprising was occurring during the summer. And at least in New York City, when it came to Pride, there were so many publications and brands still just trying to figure it out. Like were we going to have a traditional pride? Even if it was virtual, were we going to try to do something that kind of ignored the pandemic. Or just again, because people had at that point been quarantined for two or three months. And people wanted to offer some levity and lightheartedness. Because Pride is also that. It's one of the times during the year where we can shed our skin, get rid of any kind of, again, no pun intended, get rid of masks that we wear kind of throughout the year, and really be able to connect and and show and celebrate who we are as a collective and as individuals. And we were able to also see in real time that there were a lot of brands who were being called out by their employees, or by their supporters, because they again, we're not walking their talk.
You saw folks who were like, “Oh, we really believe in Black lives and supporting queer folks” and all of these things. And it's like, well, like three months ago, none of that was present in your campaign strategy. None of that was apparent in your marketing. So yes, like, we hear you. But where have you been? So it's, it is I think there has been a shift in how brands and companies are going to begin to participate in larger social or political conversations and counterCULTURE is prepared to get them the talent and prepare them with the ideas and the trainings and things that are necessary to help better articulate our experiences to where they don't seem contrived, where they don't seem inauthentic. There's a way for large traditional brands to be able to open up the table for us to share our experiences without them losing who they are, but rather simply saying, we've always been here, we've always been supporting your products, we've always been in your communities. Let us show you *OUR* experience of America, our experience of the of the world. So I'm excited and hopeful, mostly, rather than, I think, annoyed or cynical, because I know that could be the case with some folks. After seeing the last year we've been through.
Derek Horn
Totally. I know, you mentioned that you have this unique perspective, as a Black, Queer Air Force veteran, do you think that there's anything specifically from your experience as an Air Force veteran that has uniquely prepared you for the work that you're doing now?
Michael Counter
Strategy?
I think that my, my, what they call your AFSC, my job was in navigation, and just figuring out how to literally connect the dots so that the mission could continue to forward, as efficiently and as safely as possible, to be able to kind of delegate certain tasks to various team members in a timely fashion so that all things could be reached at the correct point, like I said, safely, and assuredly so. I think community, like, recognizing that there's a bigger picture at play, there's some really remarkable, service members, who I served with, that really gave me the lay of the land. These were Queer individuals who I, when I joined under Don't ask, Don't Tell you being out in uniform was still this scary thing. And I was fortunate to not only join under Don't Ask, Don't Tell, but then to still be with, or to complete my service. By the end of it, the repeal had occurred. So to see just what one piece of legislation could do for a community of folks, was entirely liberating, even in this day and age.
And so I think that, again, strategy, camaraderie, having a vision of a larger picture. The Air Force, tenants are integrity, first service before self and excellence in all you do. And I think that my work my track record, the work that they do, through counterCULTURE, the folks that I look to lift up through the projects we produce, fix, still with that kind of mission and motto.
Derek Horn
I love that.So I know one of the exciting things you're working on now, is this Legends of Drag project. Do you mind telling us a little bit more about that?
Michael Counter
Oh, my gosh, you guys, I love like, I'm so proud of this project. Legends drag is the brainchild of creative director Harry James Hansen, one of my queer sisters here in New York City. And dear, dear, dear creative partner of Harry's named Devin Antheus, who resides out in San Francisco. Devin is a remarkable floral designer, writer and spirit worker. And I mentioned that because the project is an art it's on. It's an archival project that celebrates the elders in the drag community. And we literally give them their flowers while they're here. Devin designs, these really beautiful arrangements that when everything is all said and done, when you see these remarkable photos, it shows that drag has existed for centuries, and in our very short memory span, we have an idea that drag is a very youthful kind of pop culture, mainstream painting mainstream thing, and that is, that's very recent. And that's great. You know, it’s an amazing thing to see and to have, and it's spreading across the world, thanks to Drag Race. But when we think of some of the campaigns and things that we saw last year, about supporting the people of America, supporting our communities, there are within our talent pool of Legends of Drag, truly, institutions.
There are remarkable performers like the late Lady Red Couture who passed last summer, we were, fortunately, able to capture her beautiful spirit. But she's like her tagline was “the largest lip-synching drag queen in captivity,” this over six foot five tall, beautiful, Black drag queen that we know and love from the Hey Qween! TV show with the wonderful Jonny McGovern.
And, we have folks that people might recognize we have the oldest working drag queen who's 89 years old, Darcelle. She's 89 years old, happy about it. She's out in the west coast in Portland. And it's not just the fact that she's the oldest working drag queen, this woman has written books, this woman has lived through the HIV AIDS epidemic. And we have this really awesome opportunity with ourselves in particular because they've also owned a club, for the last several, several years.So not only, not only is a business owner and entrepreneur, drag performer, at 89 is still out there, writing books and performing. These are pillars of our community. These are the people who were doing it before it was popular. And as you know, at least for millennials, before there was a Drag Race, a lot of the traditions of the practice that would be passed down through queer culture, there's a gap because we lost so many people due to HIV AIDS. So when we do have a project, like Legends of Drag that celebrates drag elders, the folks who made it through who continue to show us how to celebrate who continue to show us and inspire us and show us how to protest, and to do it with vigor and passion and color, to not be afraid to continue to pursue how we interpret the American dream. This is a remarkable cast of characters we have.
We have Love Connie, who is from Los Angeles folks might recognize from, you know, some of the shows and things that she does with the drag race girls. But again, a remarkable story in a great span. When you look at Darcelle when you look at Love Connie, when you look at Lady Red Couture, these are drag performers who have very different drag styles, come from different generations. And obviously various ethnicity and gender makeup or and backgrounds. So the Legends of Drag project, I think is a remarkable project that is at the heart of senior living, pop culture, music, and just kind of the new Americana. The folks that we have featured are like 80 rock stars who you know, have been the pillar of their queer community for ages, 20, 30, 40 years, you know, so we are looking to not only celebrate them not only pay homage but to say that we don't have to wait for an In Memoriam. We don't have to wait for the next protest. We don't have to wait for the next pandemic, to simply say thank you. To simply say you survived, and you thrive, and you are an example you are a beacon you are you know someone who opened doors when you may not have known you were opening doors for queer kids like myself who are from Arkansas and have the notion in the gall to show up in New York City and say, I want to work with queer sisters and make a project about drag queens, you know, who are older, you know, like that's, that's a remarkable thing to be able to do and to see into fruition.
So many thanks to Harry, and to Devin, we are raising $75,000 this year to wrap up the project. We have probably six or seven more cities across the country that we're going to cover to round out the 80 Legends who will be part of our art book and subsequent exhibition. We have just signed with Abrams Publishing. So the book is coming in 2022. Again, we have a few more shoots and so I will simply share folks who are interested to go to legends, legendsofdrag.org. We are a 501c3 organization. So you can make a tax-deductible donation, every little bit counts. And I'm excited. The counterCULTURE is supporting the project through creative strategy and figuring out new ways to help elevate the project and share the story and highlight these remarkable talented folks, you know, in digital and different content series that we hope to have out later in the year and early next year.
Derek Horn
Wow, even just hearing you describe that I haven't seen any of the images yet. But I just have goosebumps hearing about this, I can't wait till it comes out. Just because I think that we owe so much to our elders. And they're definitely, like even just thinking about, I know, Drag Race is such like a microcosm of the Queer community as a whole. But there's this season, there's this queen Tamisha Iman who is she's middle aged, she's not as old as probably the elders you're capturing. But there's this unique dynamic, where she's kind of older, she's in her I think, around 50. But all these other queens are usually in their 20s or early 30s. So it's been this kind of interesting dynamic that's been at play there.
Michael Counter
As far as the kind of the age, I think what's really awesome is to see not only the kind of multicultural aspect but the intergenerational aspect of the program, because we have folks like Darcelle, who's 89 years old. And, you know, that means that you know, civil rights movement, Vietnam, like all of these, top kind of moments in history, no, dark side was saying, you know, Lady Red Couture being able to not only be a drag queen but also be a trans Black woman in America during the 90s and early 2000s. And, you know, making her way, you know, to our screens, you know, and this woman was really amazing. And so, with the work that, like I said, Devin as a spirit worker, I think it's beautiful, that not only are these shots stylized, not only are the stories that we're sharing, authentic, but there is this idea of kind of a spiritual tradition, you know, drag for so many of us, you know, people would call going to the gay bars on Saturday would be Saturday church, you know, like this is it's, you know, it's this, you know, kind of spiritual, benevolent process and tradition that, you know, we hope to not only celebrate, but to hopefully be kind of a bridge to simply say to all of the lovely 11,12,13-year-old girls and gays and queers who are in love with drag race for them to simply say, Hey, there was another batch of rock stars that didn't make it to your TV screens yet. But, you know, there's, you know, there's definitely some examples and blueprints that we should not overlook.
Derek Horn
Totally. So even beyond drag, things like street art, music, playwriting, and so many more outlets are important parts of LGBTQ+ history. who are, who are the queer artists that have inspired you the most?
Michael Counter
So I will say, first, I will not say that this person that I will name identified as queer, but for me, as a southern-bred Black queer kid growing up, Toni Morrison was my first foray into what language could do. And knowing the queer communities relationship to reading and shading and the turn of a phrase, going to Toni Morrison first, understanding like Southern Gothic literature and the tradition there and understanding how to how to use words to not only tell someone something, but to almost have some kind of like incantation to really paint the world to manifest the thing that you wanted, and for it to still be beautiful. She was for me, queer, creative ground zero and that and because of her work in the 70s 60s and 70s, with black feminism and black womenism, that led me to, you know, all of these remarkable women like Audre Lorde.
And then from kind of a music-standpoint contemporarily now I'm so in love with Janelle Monae. I love what they bring to the table musically. But also just a message like to be able to, from the minute you see her to see that there is, there's something to be said from the style dress, you always know that there's going to be a message through music and through the videos. So, yes, putting it in the universe, Janelle Monae, I will work with her.
And, and then of course, some kind of Black queers, I feel like it would be remiss to not say, changes James Baldwin. James Baldwin, again, kind of finding him through that entry point of Toni Morrison and Black writers who were not describing things in a kind of stereotypical way or in a way that was kind of traditional people who were challenging form of writing and, and then to kind of fast forward and see someone like Missy Elliott, in the 90s, to show up and again, not because they identify as queer, but because not from a gender or sexuality standpoint, but simply their existence was queer, like, they just didn't fit for meaning Queer as weird, or I don't know, counterculture. But to see these individuals who had skin like my own, who may be squished the way that I did, who appreciated baselines and different kind of gospel leaning things, and the way that I grew up, all of those people were kind of on my list of why I wanted to work in creative, why I wanted to pursue academic studies on arts and culture and to obviously be led to support the communities that I'm part of in really, really large ways because it's all about getting the story out and having the narrative be as authentic as possible, regardless to the media.
Derek Horn
That's beautiful. So you described this incredible roster of folks who have inspired you, have there been any defining moments in your life that have given you clarity, in your journey to where you are now? And how has that impacted the arc of your life?
Michael Counter
Yes, I think, a defining moment, I will say, and I feel like this is so cheesy, it was, it wasn't necessarily my coming out story, because like that's, I feel like that's this is, these are the kinds of things that folks who are listening to queer folks talk like, “Oh, it's the coming out story. Of course, that's the pinnacle.” My coming out was very uneventful because I have a very loving support system home. But I think, where I did kind of figure out like, this would be who would kind of help me chart my path forward, as far as my identity goes, is my late Aunt Shirley. When I was coming out, I told her before I told my parents, and she essentially gave me a key to her to home, and like you're gonna be fine, like, your parents love you. But if you need a place to cut this, no questions just come here. She knows, she knew my parents, like she's obviously close to us. And she believed that my parents would be okay. But she gave me this kind of nod of you have a place to go.
Those are the things in my life. Those are the moments were similar when I was in the military, finding queer leaders who were who had been serving in uniform, under Don't Ask, Don't Tell and understood how to navigate the system, who would just kind of pull me aside and say, hey, it's okay, you have a place. I know, on paper, these are the rules, or I know, this is what's being said to you, but you have room, there's space for you. So I feel like my work with counterCULTURE is always to make space. Like I want to make space for these narratives. I want to make space for these remarkable, queer trans POC creatives, with whom I work, whether it's getting them into rooms where they can have full-time employment and work kind of in a traditional way, what is simply figure out how to get them brand support and funding for something that they see as paramount for telling the story of their community or their experience. So he transitional or that the transformative time for me in my life was those moments when people made space for me because, again, when you have certain identity markers, Black, queer, so on and so forth, there can be a lot of rooms or places and systems that are not made with you in mind. But when you can have what I call Earth Angels, who will just say, there's a way to do it, like there's a way to pass through here or to go in this way. So yes, thank you for the folks who made room and I'm always compelled to do that with the work that I do.
Derek Horn
I love that. Yeah, I think I think when it comes to career people, it's kind of the coming out story is kind of unexpected part of kind of your life story. And I think, I think at least the way I think about it is it's not one moment. I mean, even for me, literally coming out was like a process of telling people over a couple years, “I'm gay,” but also it's like, even beyond that, it's like as you move through life, you're always kind of coming out in different moments in different settings and, and things like that. And then even on top of that, it's like, as long as you're open and receptive to it, it's like, your relationship with your queerness and your identity can evolve through time. So it's like, even coming out to yourself in new ways. At least I found.
So what is something that's important to you that you think society should be paying more attention to?
Michael Counter
Back to Legends of Drag, I think, when we are, we have a really unique opportunity to look at how we are aging and to look at those who we consider being our elders. Specifically, within the queer community, we have a unique chance to, really, to see what it's like, kind of not necessarily post HIV AIDS, but to be able to corral around those, our seniors to be able to say, like, we don't forget you after Stonewall, we don't forget you, after the AIDS epidemic, we don't forget you like there's, like there's so much more life. And obviously, the people that are part of Legends of Drag are a testament to the fact that,, life keeps moving, and we keep getting better and better. It's not as if these queens stopped performing at the age of 40. In some cases, they were just getting started at the age of 40. We have this image across the board, that anything on TV is just for young folks or the, the trends are only applicable to that 18 to 34 demographic, but, the pandemic showed that there are there's like a new batch of elders who previously had no idea what a Zoom or Google Meet and things are and now they have adopted this digital, kind of incorporating more digital means and media into their lives.
And so I'm excited about like, what are we calling these late in life early adopters or, what are we doing to, to say there's room for other people at the table, we don't write people off just because they are considered retirement age. For all of the publications looking for unique angles, again, listening to Darcelle talk about her writing books or the bar that she owns, this is an entrepreneur from a business standpoint, what is it? Like where's the story of the oldest living, oldest performing drag queen in America running a gay bar during COVID. Like where's that story? People that are interested in beauty products for queens for women or gender non-conforming folks,, over the age of 50, hello MAC, like, we're looking for the campaign. It's those kinds of unique opportunities, where it's like, you have to show people that there's more there, you have to be prepared to say, this is great, what we're doing, but there are definitely more folks that could be in the room. And so I think, overall, paying attention to our elders paying attention to the folks who have the institutional knowledge, who lived through some of these things. I thought it was really sweet that people were pointing out, I think Betty White she’s celebrating her 99th birthday. And they're like she was alive during the Spanish flu pandemic. And it's like, that's wonderful.
But we have queens too who've been through those things, to be able to, not only from a kind of, wow, this person has lived a life, but they actually have knowledge and experience, through multiple recessions, and depression and all of these things that we kind of think is we think are like “back then”, it's like, no, like, here, here's an opportunity for us to like, sit at the feet of some really remarkable people who could teach us some things, who could pass down some, some traditions to us, that, obviously, that has sustaining power, because they have used it to make it through. So pay attention to and pay attention to your elders, and not from just because of age, but, appreciation. like Thank you, pay homage, we should be thanking our elders more and more every day.
Derek Horn
I love that so much. And I do think that it has been an interesting experience watching some parts of the gay community and how they're navigating COVID and not in the most responsible ways. And I just think about how the very recent history with HIV and AIDS and how like that, that forced people to change how they relate and kind of connect and engage with their community. And that that was only a couple decades ago, and it's still to an extent ongoing. So it's, I don't know, it was very disappointing to see a few weeks ago, all these these gays in Mexico partying for New Year's and just kind of… it's kind of this individualistic mindset of like, Oh, I'm healthy, I'm fit, I'm gonna be fine. When in reality, I do think that there are so many important lessons that we could be gleaning from our elders and how they navigated that crisis.
Michael Counter
It's easy to kind of draw comparisons between the onset of the HIV AIDS epidemic and Coronavirus pandemic, I have talked with some of my elders who were in New York specifically, ain the 80s and 90s. Andthey had stories that they had their fair share of frustrations with their peers at the time, who were also being reckless and not really, maybe taking things too seriously or taking the collective situation into some kind of perspective and consideration. So, it's, it is part of, I guess, kind of the, the human experience.
But I'm, again, there's, there's been so many wonderful things, again, with folks having to learn new technology and figuring out how to connect in new ways. So I'm hopeful that while there are those who have not acted in our best interest, the majority of us are really trying to do our part to stay safe individually and to keep our loved ones and things safe so that we can find our way back to each other soon.
Derek Horn
Of course, yeah, and I do understand it's this tension I think folks are experiencing of life is short and for many people who have had difficult journeys to get where they are, especially as queer people, they there's this inclination to want to celebrate and have that joy. But it's it's kind of how do you how do you balance that with this community mindset, it is a balancing act.
So one day, hopefully, this challenging pandemic will be behind us. When you imagine that day, what are you most hopeful for?
Michael Counter
I am most hopeful, following the pandemic, or following what what will allow us to kind of get back to some kind of homeostasis, I guess, I am looking forward to people being excited about each other again, we've all gone through this swell of emotion of not being with each other. In some cases, a lot of people have either lost jobs or their financial situations have changed. And with all of those pressures, I think just the simple notion of human contact, like being able to cackle and guffaw in my friends faces again, to be able to tell corny jokes and be just to be normal and to connect, and to be able to hug without worrying and fear. You know, it's like those really simple things. I think, from a business standpoint, I hope that that, that longing for connection will indeed spill over into kind of a lived compassion, I think that we've been away from each other for so long. I'm really hopeful that maybe this starts a new way of l wanting to be together again, not just from a, I want to get out, because these are my feelings, and I can't be in the house anymore. It's more of what does that first concert look like? What does is the first those really big, large people events where it's just about riding the wave of whoever the performer is, whatever the piece of art, whatever the piece of music, or food or whatever would bring us together, but simply being excited, and joyous about another human like, this is this is something that we get to do again, and it's not someone that's in a screen anymore, it's like getting back to, to hugging and literally touch, feel, all of those sensational things that maybe we take for granted in this place, like New York City, or anywhere else, for that matter. But yeah, I look forward to it. I look forward to like smiling, really close in people's faces. And just being near my friends and family without any fear of am I endangering you? Or vice versa?
Derek Horn
Very beautifully said. Yeah, I think there's been many points throughout the year where I think back to all the times, I either declined the invitation to schlep from Harlem to Brooklyn on a Saturday night, or I did so begrudgingly. It's like what I would give to be able to do that without any inhibition right now.
Michael Counter
Yeah, so I read this really cute Tweet the other day, and it was a mom Tweeter, and she was essentially saying, “I'm going to every, every everything, I'm going to every card game, every cocktail party, I've going to all the PTA meetings, just anything where the people are.” So I, I'm excited because I think we will be excited to be with each other again, that's, that's, that's a sweet, corny thing that I'm looking forward to.
Derek Horn
Very nice. Before we sign off, where can listeners find you online and find out more about the projects they're working on?
Michael Counter
People can find me most easily at MichaelLCounter on Instagram. That's my handle. There is probably where I'll be where I post most of the things I'm doing. But when it comes to legends of drag, we have been a remarkable site legendsofdrag.org. Again, you can make a tax deductible donation in any little bit helps. We are raising 75k by September 2021. And the book should be out in 2022 along with the exhibition. So check out our website. And then you can also follow Legends of Drag on Instagram and see all of the kind of reference some of the kind of reference references that we're pulling from for the project as well as some kind of behind the scenes things with Harry and Devin. And some of the shots that have been featured already are also listed are also on our Instagram. So we have our shots from last year that were featured in Harper's Bazaar, shots that were featured in Rolling Stone, and our inaugural series which have shots that were executive produced by RuPaul’s Drag Race winner Sasha Velour. He's a nine winner, we love her. She actually executive produced the first four shots for the project, which is how we were able to find ourselves in Vogue a couple of years ago, so always grateful for fellow queers in the community supporting the project. But yes, LegendsofDrag.org and @legendsof drag on all social media.
Derek Horn
That's great. Well, thank you, Michael, for your time. And I am so excited to see how this incredible project continues to come to life. And I hope to talk to you again soon.
Michael Counter
Awesome, thank you so much for having me. And I appreciate In These Uncertain T imes. It's a great podcast. Thank you so much.
Derek Horn
Thank you. Ready? Well, that was great. Thank you.