Derek Horn
Welcome back to In These Uncertain Times, a podcast about creating and connecting in the midst of uncertainty. I’m your host, Derek Horn
Today’s guest is my boss and one of my greatest creative inspirations, Sarah Williams, Partner and Chief Creative Officer of Beardwood&Co.
“Make it happen with what you’ve got”— are words that were spoken frequently at Sarah’s house growing up, and she still lives by them today. Take on the challenge, be smart about finding the best solution, and inspire those around you by doing great work together. Sarah has a passion for brands with ambition and a focus on meaningful leadership with clients—understanding their business challenges, and delivering impactful creative to unlock their full potential. Sarah joined Beardwood&Co in their agency infancy and is proud of the all-star team they’ve assembled. She began her career at Landor launching Song airlines, getting foodie with Burger King and PepsiCo, and later telling the story of CBGB’s.
Sarah and I have a chat about how we brought Beardwood’s agency operations and relationships online at the start of the pandemic, how consumers are forming new rituals, how brands are adapting to them, and the importance of young people in keeping our creative process fresh and relevant.
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Hi, Sarah, welcome to In These Uncertain Times, how are you doing?
Sarah Williams
Hi, Derek. I'm very glad to be here with you. How are you?
Derek Horn
Doing well, thank you for joining. So to get started, could you please introduce yourself to listeners in your own words?
Sarah Williams
Sure. Yeah. My name is Sarah Williams. I'm a Partner and Chief Creative Officer of Beardwood&Co. So we're a branding agency based in New York, but kind of everywhere right now. which is fantastic and interesting in its own journey that you know, we're not in our studio anymore. I'm Mom to Finnley. She's a six-year-old. So that's another big part of my life. And yeah, it's been an incredible journey lately to sort of learn and work in these new, uncertain times, as you aptly titled your podcast.
Derek Horn
So obviously, we work together, this has been quite the journey the past few, like the past few months to almost a year at this point. How would you say that COVID has forced you to adapt your personal process? as well as? How have we implemented some changes at Beardwood&Co.?
Sarah Williams
Yeah, it's funny, I was just thinking back to around last March. And I know you and I were having some conversations around this big food conference called Expo West, but probably some of your listeners have been to or are aware of, and it was really just at that time, the news of COVID was starting to come out and just kind of reaching the shores in the US like, what, you know, how do we, how do we consider this and, you know, going to this conference, a good idea or not, and it's just kind of incredible to look back on that. And think of that as really like, the tip of this iceberg that radically changed our lives. So perspective is everything.
But I think what's been interesting about it is, is really trying to change changed my, you know, ideas, relationship with the idea of how we work, and I was just thinking about it, as well, this, you know, working remotely, I feel like that term has almost this, like, inherent sense of isolation, just built into the word itself, the phrase, and it's really kind of shifting to a connected working environment, because we really have to rely on a lot more tools to keep us connected and be really, really purposeful and intentional about that so that we can stay connected. So I think, you know, I know a lot of people have spoken about how we miss those human interactions, those natural interactions that we used to have, like, Hey, we're sitting at the kitchen table together in the studio, or we're riding the elevator, we're walking in the door together, and those little natural moments to connect. So when I think it's just trying to be more purposeful about those, when we are chatting, you know, taking that little moment before the meeting. I remember that we're all human, we're all dealing with this in different ways and wanting to kind of be open and hearing how people are, are processing it.
Derek Horn
Totally. Yeah, it is wild to think how kind of abrupt, we had to change our way of working, I think it was, we were really set up for success because we had started this program of working remotely. I think depending on which team you're on, like a couple of times a month on Fridays, so that I think that really helped us get our process, at least somewhat remote. So then it when COVID forced us to go online, it wasn't like we were starting from nowhere. That was helpful from at least from my perspective.
Sarah Williams
Yeah, you know, had we known. I’m glad we started doing that. But I think, you know, when we first started that I remember, we were kind of having these debates, should we try? Should we not? What's that going to be like? And I kept thinking of this kind of frame of reference, like of the lunar landing, and, okay, well, that's, that's a much greater, you know, bigger ambitious challenge than saying launching a brand so, and they had much less technology. So I kept thinking of that, like, Okay, if that's possible, we could definitely do this.
And, yeah, I think we did have that warm-up, there's always going to be this, you know, the short term and long- term adaptations of that I was just speaking to a friend who's a creative director at a global agency, at a digital agency. And, you know, we were just chatting about how we're still transitioning in a way at one year out of how we're working, connecting, and collaborating. And even as we start to have things like vaccines or be able to enter workplaces together safely, there's going to be just as much of that a transition time to some of that. So it's just really being kind of, I think, conscious that we're continually in this kind of state of adaptation right now.
Derek Horn
Totally. So obviously, this new way of working, as you said, has changed the way we connect. What do you mind telling listeners kind of how our communication style has needed to change because of this and kind of some of the technology we've been using to do that?
Sarah Williams
Yeah, yeah, I think being really kind of intentional and clear and focused is one important thing, just, you know, particularly we rely so much on written communication, as well as things like video communication, which I know can have its own sense of drain and challenges, but at least we get to sort of see each other's facial expressions, you know, body language, and I think that's still those sensory cues that we rely on as human beings. I think, especially with written communication, being able to create those spaces for dialogue. So we, you know, in terms of tools, I think we use Basecamp. I know a lot of agencies use Slack, but just being able to have these spaces for rolling conversations, about projects about things that we want to do with the agency, where we can still share in post inspiration. That sense of sharing is, I think, just still so critical in terms of how we're understanding what's going on in each other's lives, where we're getting inspired.
I think another tool that's been really, really invaluable is Miro, the online whiteboarding collaboration tool because it's really been our vehicle for collaborating, especially visually, I think trying to think through ideas, talk about concepts, giving us space to kind of see everything together and talk about it and make notes. That’s something I think that's been absolutely invaluable to kind of keeping that sense of dialogue that we once were able to have in the same room in-person, like putting everything up on the wall.
Derek Horn
Oh, yeah. That is, that is one thing I miss is that kind of tangible part of the design process, printing things out being able to markup designs on paper with pen. Even since we do a lot of packaging, design, comping things up, handling it, we found solutions to do some of those things. But that is one part I personally miss is that very tangible part of the process that we were able to have when we had the in-person studio.
So is there anything that you think, or that you found over this past year that you would want to keep going for our process in the long haul? Even if we end up back in person?
Sarah Williams
Yeah, it's a conversation that I still want to have in an ongoing way with our team. But I do think this notion and expectation of all being together all the time in the same room for the same hours, is it something that we can continue to rethink in that future, and are there more purposeful ways that we use that time together that we use physical space together? Do we have a future where maybe we're not all in the studio together all the time? But it's, you know, moments where we say, Okay, this is where this is a day where we really want to have this very kind of purposeful workshop, this purposeful conversation where we're in the room together. And that's an important time to kind of come together and be together.
But I'm also hoping that it can create a little bit more flexibility of where, where people are, who we're collaborating with. The ability to not be in New York all the time, where we're based. And one of the things that's been, I think, an incredible gift this year, you are part of this is we had our internship program, and were able to hire one of our interns full-time, who's based in Miami, and I know she's interested in someday moving to New York, but just the idea that we can continue to work with her full-time while she's based in Miami or our Head of Marketing that's based in the Detroit-area right now. And the idea that we can collaborate and work with incredibly talented people and it's not sort of a prerequisite that they live within a train ride of the studio. So I think that opens up a lot of opportunities or even just the idea if you live in New York and you want to be somewhere else for a while and just change up that scenery, I think there's so much value and that flexibility and changing routines because we discover new things about ourselves, it opens up new ways of doing things just by kind of stepping out of that routine that we're in. So I'm hoping to preserve some of that. And in wanting to hear how people feel about that in the process too.
Derek Horn
That is one thing that was really exciting. And it was obviously a little scary to, for reason, a whole load of reasons, but just kind of opening up that talent pool that we were able to tap into for that internship. And we weren't limited to, “oh, can you be in New York in two weeks to start?” I think that overall, I think that that's one thing that is, hopefully, a lasting change of this is kind of those physical, the physical distance isn't a barrier to being able to collaborate and work together with great people.
Obviously, this has been a challenging year for all of us, in various different ways. But if you face any particular mental health challenges during this period, and what kind of ways have you coped with them?
Sarah Williams
Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think it's a very human and natural thing to experience mental health challenges, we've got, you know, essentially, three major, you know, national global crises that we're living through and working through, and I think, that has personal effects on us, that affects the way that we're, you know, concerned for others in our lives. And I think also really, that combined with being, you know, more isolated to our homes, as well as kind of trying to take in and process and keep up with and find information about how to how to, to kind of deal with these things and be better. It's a lot.
So I think, that sense of being always sort of on and trying to process this information can create a lot of anxiety. And so I think that really trying to balance that sense of anxiety has been something that I've been focused on, you know, for myself, and definitely felt that anxiety of where, where's this road going? What does that mean for our future as a studio where I was at affecting the people I love.
And I know you lost a close family member, earlier this year, and I lost my father last year. And I think that sense of loss is all around us, as well. And it's just really important to acknowledge that that's a lot to process. So yeah, I think in terms of how to how to deal with that. One of the things that I've been really trying to focus on is just this idea of gratitude and knowing that there are still so many things to be positive, about and trying to focus on those, like, seeing my daughter learn new things, or being able to go for a run in the morning because I'm not on the subway or just connecting with new people because we have this more, you know, open, not location way of connecting. I think that's really important. And I think that finding time for things like exercise, I know that sounds very sort of literal, prescribed in a way but I, to me, that's actually been one of the huge things is kind of saying like, Okay, I'm gonna just take this time to move and focus and step away and look at some trees while I'm running down the block. And that really, really helps me so.
Derek Horn
Yeah, that's great. One of the things that regarding that kind of sense of grief, I think that this past week was the inauguration. And just seeing how the day before the inauguration, Biden and Harris hosted this candlelight vigil for the people that were lost due to COVID. And that was just such a – I don’t know what the right word is… refreshing? But just acknowledging that grief and sitting with that grief and not pretending that it doesn't exist. We'll see how the next few months play out because I think it will get worse before it gets better, but it's great knowing that there's that humanity back in our leadership and hopefully more of a recognition of that grief and kind of collective mourning that I feel like has been kind of absent for the past year in many ways.
Sarah Williams
Yeah, I think that's a really important note, it's, you know, we kind of, we kind of live in this constant tension, I think of trying to move forward trying to keep, you know, running successful businesses, trying to keep our lives sort of, with some grain of normalcy, where we can, but it's really at that sort of tension point of, you have to be able to have time to acknowledge what people are going through and process that for yourself, and connect with them. So I agree, I think that's really, really important. And it's, it was kind of incredible, watching the inauguration, that sense of humanity. And I think the way that words that have been part of our country's history have new and different meanings, and, you know, listening to something like Lady Gaga sing the national anthem, and she's saying the line and our flag was still there. And that was kind of was like, I don't know, a gut-punch of emotion to me, because I used to just think, yeah, if I was still there, after the battle, now, it's like, oh, democracy can actually still be here. We have to reinforce it and open it up and work on it. But just the kind of idea that like, there, there is still this opportunity for humanity and democracy moving forward. It just struck me with this whole new meaning that I never really thought about before.
Derek Horn
Definitely. So moving on to the state of branding. I know, so much of our work is really, really rooted in thoughtful strategy, and kind of insights about consumer behavior. And the ways that people are shopping and socializing, and generally existing in the world. From your perspective, what are some of the major shifts in consumer behavior that you've seen over this past year?
Sarah Williams
Yeah, I think in one way, it's just accelerating those changes that were already present in our lives, you know. And in that, I think, last year, there was a 71% rise in online sales and shopping, and particularly how we work with a lot of consumer brands. And particularly for any brands in that space, whether it be personal care, or food, or anything that we really kind of use product-wise in our lives, that means that we're not really going back into the store unless we absolutely have to. So I think that acceleration of that trend, how we're discovering brands, how we're connecting with them, how we need to think about creating that experience, and reaching people in a clear way, we really kind of have to, I think flip that process inside out, which was already happening but thinking about those conversations that we're having, how we connect in places like social and the digital flagship experience, whereas we used to have the conversation of, well, the packaging has to do everything. And that's really the end of the journey now. So it's designing in that and thinking strategically in that very, very holistic sense. So that by the time you get that product in your hand, that's really sort of the end of the journey. And that's really got to continue to drive the way that we think about our process and work and collaborate too.
Derek Horn
Right, right, it's almost like because we're not in the stores as much anymore. It's like, we don't have to have, we don't have to have every kind of claim screaming at us to try and get our attention. But rather, it's like, what is that experience like online? And what is this, hopefully beautiful, thing that you're then gonna have in your home and have to live with, like, on your bathroom shelf or your kitchen or anything like that. So yeah, that has been, like you said, it's like something that I think we've, over the past few years, we've been really thinking more about this 360 brand experience, but this is just like many things, COVID has kind of put that on fast-forward in many ways.
Sarah Williams
Exactly. Yeah. And I think it's, you know, these, these behaviors and these trends have existed, but they're just going to be much more permanent and much more accelerated at this point. And I think the other thing is that it’s made everyone think about the product decisions, you know, there were already there was already this incredible focus on how is it made? What's in it? You know, what are the values behind this brand or product that I'm buying into? And I think, especially too, how can it support my health and well-being, you know, we've stepped away from a lot of those interactions that we used to have, I think, especially this year, things like, we're not going to the dentist as much, we're not going to the doctor as much unless we're like, truly ill and concerned, we're not going to places, you know, I haven't had my hair cut and over a year. So it's not that that's an important health issue, necessarily, but it's just really how do you kind of bring some of these pieces home to sort of support your own health when we're not as in touch with some of those rituals, that routines that we used to be.
Derek Horn
Right. Yeah. And I think it has been kind of unlocking some interesting ways that bridge between the physical and the digital world. I know back a few months ago, you wrote this really great piece about the resurgence of the QR code in this COVID era, do you mind telling us a little bit more about what you're seeing with that?
Sarah Williams
Yeah, I think what's been really interesting from that perspective, I remember when QR codes first started coming out, oh, man, this is such a gimmick. They're clunky, they're ugly, why do I have to deal with this thing? But I think it's interesting to see how these forms of technology that maybe seemed annoying or gimmicky have unlocked a whole new way of giving power to businesses, I think, particularly with things like the restaurant industry, and that's in such a fragile state, but yet such an important source of jobs and income for people. And it's a way to still be able to engage with those places, but do it safely. In terms of ordering and being much more contactless. It’s that sense of, I want to still connect with this restaurant, or this coffee shop that I love and the people that work there that I, you know, care about, but it's giving me a safe way to stay in contact while being contactless. And so I think that's going to just continue to embed more even in the physical retail environment.
One of the things that I loved brand-wise that was happening is Impossible Foods has, I think they've just been doing an incredible job in terms of really expanding their plant-based food and mission and how they reach out that they had created this Patty Pickup Party. Essentially, they took over a carwash in LA and created this drive-thru experience where you could pay with a QR code and pick up your own sort of personal, Impossible Foods Patty kit, and I think just finding ways that feel really smart, there is an emotional connection, there's a story there, you're leveraging some of this technology, like a QR code to make it a safe experience. And it's still personal. I think, though, as we can't do things like pop-up shops and events anymore, finding these other creative ways, are really important parts of the brand experience. And then I think it just opens up a lot of opportunity for storytelling too, it sort of helps you trace, you know, the origins of the ingredients, or can lead you to video content that helps you understand more of the story behind the brand or if they’re a B Corp, talking about that mission. So it's just a way to kind of open up that dialogue and information that I think we're all much more focused on, you know, the choices we make, especially when we need to be more careful about how we're spending our money, too.
Derek Horn
Yeah, I actually, for the longest time, I kind of derided QR codes because they are not the most beautiful thing. But hopefully, maybe the powers that be will give that a rethink, maybe make something a little more visually appealing. However, I do like I think they've been really a great one for example, packaging design. It gives you that opportunity to tell a larger brand story, but not having to pile everything on your very limited package and allowing that to need-to-know information that room to breathe. So it feels less overwhelming for consumers.
But also, I think it's like, more environmentally friendly in many ways. Like, that's one thing with the restaurants, it's been great. I've only been out to eat, like the outdoor dining a handful of times. But each time it was like they have a QR code at the hostess desk where you can like scan, a couple of places I've been to they make you fill out this Google Form just for contact tracing purposes if they need it. But then also, the menu at the table itself and you scan and it pulls up on your phone. And that obviously requires you to use less paper to print. It allows them the ability to customize and update it more frequently. And even some of these brand experiences where you might go and you get a little pamphlet that you might throw away in 30 seconds, you're still able to have that kind of communication touchpoint, that is in-person, you can hold in your hand that’s in relation to the experience that you're having, without relying on this, this needless waste to that will just end up in the garbage can before too long.
Sarah Williams
Yeah, I think that's so important. It's, you know, opening those opening us up to those digital experiences that can actually sort of stay with you and, you know, adapt and build the conversation as opposed to kind of this case that may just become kind of discarded or wasteful. So, yeah, I think that's really important to continue exploring that. And, and also, it can be a really important way to open people up to critical information too, if it's a product that's based in the health and wellness space. You know, whether that's for humans or pets, that's another piece that we've been working on too, it can really kind of open you up to make sure you've got the right information, so you're really using the products correctly so that they can have a positive impact on your health. I think that's really, really important, too.
Derek Horn
Totally. I mean, even beyond QR codes, are there any other brands that you think have been doing a good job of rolling with the punches over the past year?
Sarah Williams
Yeah, I think I mean, I go, I go back to Impossible is a good example, just in terms of really embracing, I think a lot of different fronts, you know, you can, not only with the Patty Pickup Experience, but I think they've done a really great job of just creating interesting content, they partnered with some members of the Wu Tang clan to launch YouTube series, which I think is pretty incredible. They have ways that you can see how your purchases with them kind of have positive impacts on the environment, especially being plant-based food. And then I think, you know, just kind of continuing to inspire people with outreach, how do we how do you kind of adapt this plant-based lifestyle into the things you love, you know, and, and even partnering with some of the biggest companies out there, like, Dunkin Donuts, or Burger King, it's sort of allowing people to kind of experience that, that there's something that can be better for you, better for the planet, has a really fun, engaging personality, and it's kind of being brought to you in a way that's familiar and inviting, in sort of finding those channels. So I think that's, to me, it's that kind of creativity and thinking about it across all of those parts of the experience that is, is really, really powerful.
Another thing, the Nike training app has been a big part of my life for the past year, because, you know, not going to the gym or anything like that. And I think one of the things they did that was really, really smart at the very beginning was make that free versus kind of paying for all the content and it's kind of a really incredible way of, of shifting, something that probably would have been their advertising budget and to kind of invite people into all these different ways to support your wellness and your fitness and it builds a really strong connection, you know, sense of loyalty, and they bring a lot of different storytelling in on there as well. Just inspiration about how to live in healthy ways, kind of thinking about how fitness fits into the life of a woman if you're pregnant or thinking about opening up this notion of who is an athlete and kind of breaking down some of the stereotypes around body type and things like that. I think that's really, really important. So it's that's been, I think, a pretty powerful way of connecting with people and opening up new stories and inspiration.
Derek Horn
Yeah, that's an interesting one, because it's almost like this marketing-as-service thing, where it's like, they're giving you this great content. But brought to you by Nike. So when you're inevitably going to be working out, and you're like, Oh, I need a new pair of sneakers, like, Who do I go to? Theoretically, you can engage with that content without ever purchasing a Nike item. Yeah. So yeah, I think that's like an interesting way, like you said, it's kind of probably them shifting some of their budgets into that app that there would normally be spending on traditional advertising that is very fleeting and doesn't necessarily have that same impact on people's day to day lives.
Sarah Williams
The funny part is that most of the time when I'm using it, I’m barefoot.
I think you're totally right. It just, it feels kind of infused into your life. And, you know, there are awards and merit badges that kind of encourage you to keep going. And, you know, in kind of the end of this sort of chain of content and experience with an app, there are product suggestions as well. So it is naturally kind of embedded there for you to discover and you've connected with me on a kind of emotional and lifestyle way. They're helping me create new rituals and be more mindful about what I'm doing. So yeah, it creates that connection, where I'll be turning to them when I need a new pair of shoes.
Derek Horn
So what are some of the ways that you think client relationships and the way we manage those have evolved during the past year or so?
Sarah Williams
Yeah, I mean, I think there, there was already, this real trend that we've always tried to embrace, I think ever since we began as an agency around collaboration, and really working together in a more embedded way. And having it feel like those ideas are coming from the collective group, you know, really kind of client and agent agency teams. And starting to shift away from more from this behind the curtain experience of Hey, we're going to come out and dazzle you after, you know, working behind the curtain for a few weeks. So what I think has been the positive and incredible part of it, first of all, when we're using video platforms like Zoom, there's, there's this interesting sort of intimacy that starts to happen, you're getting a little peek into each other's lives, you're kind of in each-other’s homes. And I think this further sense of, we're all real people striving towards the same goals, trying to do, trying to do great things and work together. So I think, in a way that's really kind of created this atmosphere that can be more open to dialogue and understanding each other, versus the formality of showing up in an office and projecting something on a big screen and having to feel like this sort of flowing conversation.
And the other things that we've started to do within that, again, kind of using tools like Miro, having those be more open as places where clients can come and visit and see the work even if we're not necessarily in a conversation together. They can add inspiration, they can add thoughts, we can have those shared times to come together and collaborate and discuss in those spaces as well. And I think embedding teams too in a way that with some of our recent projects, having people from a client's internal design team and our team really, truly kind of like working together as one team. And having those more I would say casual, ongoing dialogues about how we’re making things happen. I think that's really cool because you just get to know them on a deeper level. And they get to know us on a deeper level and can you really feel kind of bonded through that experience.
Derek Horn
Totally. Yeah, I think, I mean, I think we've done it even before COVID. We've done a good job of building those relationships with clients in-person. Be it with like, having them the office for lunches and things like that getting them to know them in that way, but I do think this new way of working, as you said it, it's like, it almost levels the playing field in a way where it's like, we really do get to tap into that humanity even more versus this more traditional client thing where it's like this very like diplomatic thing where like, one team comes into a conference room, and then the other team presents to another it's like, seeing into people's homes and kind of having those connections I think has, as you said, reminded us, hey, we're all human. This is a shared experience we're all going through. And I think that just itself kind of having that shared humanity unlocks a more natural way of working together. Yeah,
Sarah Williams
Yeah, absolutely. I think in the beginning, we were all anxious about things like, oh, sorry, you can hear my child in the background, or sorry, my dog is barking, or my cat hopped on my keyboard. And, you know, it's just that sense that we are all people, we all have these lives that surround us. And it's okay for that to filter in. And, you know, we're whole people. So understanding each other more in that way, I think is really important.
Derek Horn
Totally. Do you have any advice for people who might be embarking on either client relationship, or even a relationship with a new team member for the first time in this fully remote setting, when you're not able to meet them in person, shake their hands, get to know them in that way?
Sarah Williams
Yeah, I think one kind of great sort of tactical tool that has been really fun is when we're on a kind of new introductory meeting, kind of playing tag, so that folks can introduce each other in a way that, you know, maybe I'll tag someone from the client team to introduce themselves, or and it's not sort of this in order of hierarchy in order of seniority. I think, things like that really start to create this sense of openness, just in terms of setting the stage for how we're going to collaborate and communicate. I think the other thing that's been really fantastic is we used to have to think about, okay, how many people are we going to bring to this meeting, because it requires us to get on a plane or get in a taxi or just the time to kind of leave the studio and come back. And I think by being able to include more people in those conversations, it gives more people a chance to build their leadership skills, and present and speak and experience things like photoshoots that we're doing virtually now, instead of, Hey, I'm gonna go to this photo studio for four days, I'll see you later. So I'm hoping those things continue to open up in terms of, of how we communicate with our clients and build those relationships. And they start to really get to know us and see us and see the power and brilliance of our team as well.
Derek Horn
Totally. And so knowing that this past year, we've been having this society, a lot of these conversations about racial justice, and how that filters down into the corporate world and kind of marketing and advertising and a lot of the stuff we do, what do you think are the opportunities for folks working in branding and marketing to create a more inclusive vision for the future?
Sarah Williams
Yeah, I think that's such an important dialogue. And it's one of the things I'm trying to really hold on to, and that we're in this kind of world where everything has changed anyway, just use that as a jumping-off point to kind of change a lot of things in terms of, you know, that used to be sort of just there and kind of set in stone or on autopilot in a way. And so I think one of those is really building a more inclusive team environment and thinking about we're building our team when we're hiring new people, that that sense of representation and people having a voice that we have a team creating brands for the real world that can really speak to and connect with different people's lives and life experiences. And I think that means reaching out in different ways to, to connect with people in terms of building those relationships, building that talent, being open to much more open to as well to people's work experience, I think it used to sort of be like, Hey, you know, Okay, great, you've looked at a lot of agencies that are in our space and our competitors, so that sort of makes me feel like, you know, you can do this job and, and then looking at that in a sort of hard light and saying, Yeah, but that's been built off this system of privilege and excludes a lot of people, there are some discriminatory practices that are already sort of built into that inherently. So I do think it's for reaching out to new people to connect, to start to have different conversations around where talent can be found, what experience is relevant, and how that kind of opens our minds.
And then I think the other thing that is an important process that I think we're still very much working on and working on with our clients, we can see that change and the dialogue happening, and it's not always, not always pretty, but really just thinking about how are we? When I say we're not, it's not always pretty meaning I think people are really still getting used to kind of the language used to talk about how do we build an inclusive brand? And what does that mean? And I think, trying to be more purposeful at the beginning of projects, the beginning of those engagements, who do we want to reach? What does our audience want to see? How do they feel reflected and the imagery that we're showing and the stories that we're telling? And how do we make how do we invite more people into the brand? You know, number one, it makes business sense, there's absolutely like the humanity and the humanity aspect of it. But it's, you know, why wouldn't you want your brand to be more open inclusive to more people, because that really just opens up your audience? So from a business perspective, it's like, yes, this is important, this is critical.
But I think also being able to have conversations and the team to help build the important dialogue around what makes what feels right, in terms of that representation, and how do we do it. So it's definitely, I would say, a work in progress, but something that you know, that the journey, the journey is, there's no going back. We're in a world of change, and let's embrace that change. And let's use that as momentum to keep going forward.
Derek Horn
Totally. So what does your media diet look like? And do you have anything to recommend to listeners?
Sarah Williams
Yeah, it's been interesting. I've been thinking about that a lot. Because this year, especially I've found it really, really important to, obviously, stay connected to the news and kind of reading longer-form articles, because I want to understand the why behind. Behind, you know, some of the conversations that are happening or the deeper roots behind conversations that are happening in social media, and now and kind of trying to a little bit temper my social media diet, because I think that that can be it's an important powerful tool for sharing information, absolutely, but can also be something that can I think, feed that anxiety that we're experiencing,
Derek Horn
Information overload…
Sarah Williams
Exactly, exactly. So, you know, one of the op-eds I read recently, it was called the American Abyss. And that was in the New York Times, and it just built this, I think, really thoughtful, compelling way of weaving together a lot of the things that we've been seeing and experiencing as a society and, you know, understanding the divide in American politics, understanding how that has, you know, again, discriminatory practices built into things like voting and creating disenfranchisement. And so things like that, that can really help give you some perspective and sort of bringing together a lot of these circulating thoughts and conversations.
But on the other hand, I think it's been it's been important to kind of follow new places on social. Like Diet Prada, I think has been really important in the fashion and beauty space about kind of bringing forth some of these conversations and talking about like practices of brands, and especially, I think in the fashion space and leaders that are wrong. And so it helps really kind of surface those conversations so that they can have more investigation, more thoughtfulness around them. So it's, it's really kind of that balance of where are these topics emerging? How can I start to connect with them and understand them? And then what's the kind of, you know, the big picture, long-term historical context that's led us here? So that's really trying to kind of create that balance.
Derek Horn
Totally. Is there anything that is important to you, personally, that you think society should be paying more attention to?
Sarah Williams
Yeah, I think going back to the conversation around building a more inclusive way that we, you know, think about representation and brands that they feel like places that people are invited into, and that the people who are working on and creating those are really engaged in that I think that's really important. And it's been, you know, incredible and shocking to look back at some of the news on this year, even about brands that have been around for ages, that had these really dated, very painful racial stereotypes, things like Aunt Jemima and Uncle Ben, and you kind of look at that and go, how can this still exist in our society. But that's, you know, that's definitely one and end of the spectrum. And I think even in a way that emerging brands, contemporary brands have to be really thoughtful and really conscious about that. So that conversation needs to happen in every facet of society and culture. But brands have a powerful role in that dialogue. And it's, it's sort of one of the ways that we see ourselves and aspire to be better. So I think that's really, really important.
And I think the other piece is, you know, embracing new voices, young voices in our work. And again, I think that's one of the things that's been incredible about experiencing this change in the way that we're working that, as we've seen, newer team members who are just at the beginning of their working career come and join our studio, that they can have really powerful ideas, really fresh voices that shape the way that we work and see ourselves and making sure that we're, we're listening. And it can be, again, it's trying to resist those behaviors of things like hierarchy and top-down and taking up a lot of space in the conversation as leaders, so trying to make sure that we're hearing those fresh ideas from everyone and the wisdom that they can share. So that's really, really important.
Derek Horn
Yeah, I like both of those thoughts, because they represent this optimistic, progressive view of the future. And I think I think particularly with those heritage brands that are very outdated at this point, when those brands announced that they're changing, or getting rid of certain parts of their brand, there's, as with anything like is, with a lot of change, people were resisting it, and being like, Oh, it's always been like this, why do we need to change it? yada, yada, yada. But I mean, that's like, you could say that about human society as well. It's like, it's kind of almost like a figurehead for the progress we're making as a society. So it's like just because it's always been there, doesn't mean that it's not this harmful relic of a really violent history. So it's like, I think, just to kind of, say, it's an icon in a way for kind of that or symbol for that overall push for progress that is going on. So, and I think that as you said, it's like, as we bring in new fresh voices and new perspectives and things like that, it's like, you're not necessarily mourning what you're missing or what's being done away with, you’re able to get excited by what can be and the potential for a brighter future. So that is very exciting.
Sarah Williams
Yeah, it's, it's so powerful. And I think it's so invigorating, because it's that, you know, that good energy that we can give each other. And I think that's so important right now, especially when we all have a lot of vying for our energy. So it's, I think, finding, like, it's, it's the gratitude piece, and it is that hopeful piece that, you know, and it's, I think, part of what makes when we're at our best, our society has no productive, inspiring place to be that there is this sort of future-forward looking ideal that we have, and that involves, you know, really listening to I think, new voices, new ideas, and that's inspiring and powerful.
Derek Horn
So one day, if and when this challenging period is behind us, what are you most hopeful for?
Sarah Williams
That we won't assume that, that we won't go back to the way things were. I think it's on a lot of levels. But that we can take forward some of these new behaviors, this willingness to look at our routines and break them and find new ways of connecting new ways of working, just really continuing to be open to that.
I know personally, while there are certain things that I miss, like having school open five days a week for my daughter, I don't want to say let's go back to the good old days, because not everything about them was so good. So it's really trying to keep that sense of being open to newness, challenging our norms, challenging our routines, and I think being really purposeful about how we connect, and how we use our energy and give that energy to each other. And I'm hoping that we can all sort of keep that that perspective going forward.
Derek Horn
Well, thank you, this has been a great conversation. Where can listeners connect with you and/or Beardwood online?
Sarah Williams
You can find me on LinkedIn at Sarah Williams, and Beardwood&Co. And I would love to start a conversation and chat with anyone who's interested.
Derek Horn
Thank you for joining. It's been a great conversation. And hope to talk to you again soon.
Sarah Williams
Thank you, Derek. Thank you for inviting me. I feel really honored. And it's just incredible. The way that you've launched this podcast, and really, I think inspiring people and bringing in different conversations and topics. So I feel very honored.
Derek Horn
Thank you. Bye-bye.