Derek Horn
Welcome back to In These Uncertain Times, a podcast about creating and connecting in the midst of uncertainty. I’m your host, Derek Horn. Thank you for your patience as I needed to take a brief mental health break from the show, but have an exciting lineup of interviews coming your way.
I recorded this interview nearly a month ago. Its weird listening back to it, as honestly, it feels like many things have started to feel more optimistic in the past few weeks. Here’s to hoping that trend continues!
Bassam Shawl is a comedian, writer, and actor based in New York. Originally from Syracuse, NY, he started performing comedy in Washington, DC before moving to Brooklyn.
He’s been featured in Buzzfeed and Prior Magazine, has written for Emmy-Award winning comedian Tiffany Haddish, and has performed at several venues & festivals across the country, including Comedy on State, The Stand Comedy Club, Oak City Comedy Festival, and Laughing Devil Comedy Festival.
We had a wide-ranging conversation about his journey with stand-up comedy, our media diets and the attention black hole named Twitter, and have lots of reminiscing about growing up in Upstate New York. And yes, ten-years ago this month I actually did make my stage debut as the Lion in my high-school’s majority white production of The Wiz. Please don’t cancel me.
Thank you to Bassam and enjoy the show!
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Well, thank you for joining the pod today. How are you doing?
Bassam Shawl
I'm good, dude. It'sit's good. Senior. It's been a couple, I guess maybe over a year.
Derek Horn
To get started Can you please introduce yourself to our dear listeners in your own words?
Bassam Shawl
Yeah, for sure. I guess if they don't know my name, I know that I do now. My name is Bassam Shawl. I am a comedian based in New York, stand-up comedian based in New York. Former I guess lobbyist down in DC
Derek Horn
The swamp
Bassam Shawl
Yeah, the swamp. Yeah, I was one of the people who was evicted from the swamp, only to come to the epicenter of the pandemic in Brooklyn. So clearly wherever I go, that follows but yeah, I'm currently working at a corporate job to make ends meet and kind of doing some writing on the side to supplement some income. But comedy is obviously completely I guess, like, evaporated for most places so hoping that can change obviously, in the near future.
Derek Horn
Nice. So what has your comedy journey looked like? And how has it been impacted by COVID?
Bassam Shawl
I don't know. Derek, you were there for the comedy journey. Yeah, cause we did musicals back way back in high school. I guess. Anyone who's listening? Yeah. So Derek, and I went to high school together and I guess middle school together. So I've actually known you since we were, like 11 or 12. But yeah, we were on stage together a lot. I think you joined maybe your sophomore or junior year.
And so the first thing that I did in high school was West Side Story because they needed Puerto Ricans and I was the closest thing and, you know, I I joined and I got a few lines. And I kind of caught the stage bug after that. My best friend Jeremy was also like, a really big into, you know, performing arts. So the next four years, we were doing a lot of like, drama club and sketches and obviously doing the musicals. It was great, because I was a terrible singer. And, you know, they just gave me some speaking roles, because they're like, Alright, you're good at acting perfect? And yeah, so you know, high school was I think, at the time where I was like, I enjoy being on stage. I enjoy making a crowd laugh. I didn't do so much of that. In college. I think I did a little sketch when I was at college. But it never really became a thing. I was studying, like politics and international relations. And we also went to Syracuse together. That's also funny.
But yeah, I think when after I graduated, I moved down to DC. started doing open mics there, after seeing a couple of shows, and you know, me being arrogant and haughty as I am, I went to a show and I was like, Oh, yeah, like, I could do that. And so from there, I was like, basically helping, like run the door. And like, you know, I had to bring a lot of friends to the performances. And if I was to get on stage, and then I moved to New York, where now, before the pandemic and early on my career, I had to like, basically be on the streets kind of telling people to go to my club. And then if I got people in the room, I was able to perform.
But now I'm in a little bit of a better situation.
Derek Horn
You were one of those guys that sticks around Time Square saying, hey, comedy show comedy show?
Bassam Shawl
It's not Times Square. No, I was a little more cultured. I was in the West Village, you know, cuz I love NYU girls. No, but it was a it's a it's a great area, because like, that's very much like, I think like a cultural hub of New York, I think a lot of Performing Arts in the West Village is for clubs, just for comedy clubs, right, in like a two-block radius, and a lot of jazz, you know, a lot of like different sort of performing, you know, musical acts in the area. And overall, like, the West Village is probably my favorite place in New York. So to like, be on the streets there and trying to get people to entertain them. Like that's, that's fun to me. So, yeah, I mean, it's, it's a weird business now. But yeah, you know, I'm glad that I got to work up towards it.
Derek Horn
Nice. So what was the moment you knew that the pandemic was gonna change things big time? And what types of ways have you been adapting with your comedy?
Bassam Shawl
Yeah, man, it's terrible. I was catching some good momentum, to the point where I was, I think, maybe the most booked I've ever been in my entire life. And I was supposed to do some shows in like Austin and go down to DC for a couple weeks, and there's a few different comedy festivals I got into, and then I actually had my birthday party on March 7th, in Brooklyn. And this was like at a big bar. And I think I invited like the entire comedy community and this is probably the big super spreader event. That bar no longer is owned and operated. Rip to the Counting Room, but the first like week There were a lot of shows that were still going on. People were like, dude, fuck this, it's like not a thing like blah, blah, blah. And then a lot of people were canceling their shows because I think some of them like I think, maybe, you know, read other sources. So it was a mix of like, you know, I had my own show going on too. And I was like, do I actually keep it going, like, should I cancel it and the venue that I was working with? They were very much like, Oh, you guys should just keep doing it. But then the day of, I think was like, March, I think, March 11. I think they're like, yeah, we can't do it anymore. And that's when I think I kind of figured out like, Oh, this is like a real serious thing. Then I got COVID. I got COVID because I got COVID at my birthday party.
Derek Horn
Jeez I didn't realize you had it!
Bassam Shawl
Oh, yeah, dude, yeah, cuz there were a lot of people at my birthday party and like everyone is like, you know, like drinking and dancing and sweating. And yeah, so I lost my smile. I lost my taste. I was crowd surfing on my birthday party. So it was obviously I was going to get it there. But for about a week, when everyone was like, you know, buying groceries. Like, you know, I went to Wegmans over the Navy Yard, you know, so that's like, obviously the G.O.A.T. And I'm getting the chocolate chip cookies, the best chocolate chip cookies in the goddamn planet. And I can't taste them. And I'm freaking out. You know, cuz like, I'm like, dude, like, everyone is like stuck indoors. No one knows what this disease is like, Am I gonna die? And yeah, I called my dad, he didn't really know what the symptoms were at the time. No medical professional knew what the symptoms were But yeah, I mean, that's stuck not being able to perform or taste anything. But yeah, then I knew that this was gonna be bad. Because like, the next like, I think two or three weeks, my parents were like, you should come home because like, it doesn't look like New York is going to be like, reopening anytime soon. And then I started seeing Zoom shows pop up. And I'm like, Alright, this is really something like a cultural turning point.
Derek Horn
What was that? Like? Did you observe or like, watch some of the Zoom shows before you started to do it or what was that process like?
Bassam Shawl
No. I couldn't bring myself to watch the zoom show. No, I don't get why people would pay money. If your listeners right now, if I have a Zoom show, I'd love if you attend. But at the same time, I'm like, What the hell is the matter with you? Because we're just staring at screens all day now. And like, everyone, every one of these Zooms, meetings, just things are a goddamn comedian. And so like, the last thing you want to do is actually spend your time with people who like really don't actually want to do it. But the benefit of Zoom shows is that maybe you'll get some followers afterward. And you get to at least vocalize your material that you may be that you've been working on. And then you can kind of gauge the interest of like the audience, like it's a good muscle, just ultimately, just to kind of practice, you know, what you're doing, what your set is. But you know, it's completely different. It's all about live performance. And right, I know now, like, I'll never take lives performing for granted ever again. Like I would perform sometimes for like, two-three people and do not give anything to do that again, like right now. It's great. Because, yeah, because Zoom shows, there's a certain high that you walk away from, if you do really well, during an upset. And I think that's impossible to recreate that in a Zoom show. So I have done Zoom shows, but it's not something that I like, actively seek out. So it's just mostly people offering and I'm like, yeah, if you're paying me like 20 bucks, and I get like three followers on Instagram for it, I'll do it.
Derek Horn
Yeah, I mean, I can imagine it, it's probably difficult to like read the energy of the audience. And like, because I, I mean, I think any live performance is that kind of give and take with the audience. So having that virtual barrier must be.
Bassam Shawl
I mean, me back in the days when we were doing like, Chatroulette, like, I didn't think to be doing this and like getting paid and like, buying a ring light and mic for this, it's wild. Yeah, comedy has really become, you know, weird. I'm sure you'd obviously noticed that like, late night has had to adapt. And like, you can really just see how terrible sometimes these hosts can be. Because like, the writers aren't necessarily good, but they have an audience that's gonna laugh like they're so like, they'll ride that energy. But yeah, otherwise, like, you know, for the most part, I'm just trying to do submissions for writing. So I was like, sending like writing packets to a few different like TV shows. That's basically the only way to kind of like at least figure out where the industry can go from here on and a lot of other people, you know, tick tock, you know, you do front facing stuff. Like I've obviously done that a few times. You get more active on Twitter, there's definitely ways to you know, branches, you know, put yourself out there differently than stand up and it's just never gonna be the same feeling. You know, it's a I had one tweet that one did pretty well. He went viral is that Meghan Markel tweet that, like, you know, was making fun of like, you know, the Congress like, you know, dicking over us on payments, and credit, it was awesome to see so many people like post that that was the biggest rush I got since March of last year. And even that it's not as good. You know, it's it's not as good because then you're just checking your phone at the same time, right? It's like not like a great feeling. You know, it's, it's, it's feels like very like juvenile and petty but like when you walk offstage like I'm a badass, its completely different.
Derek Horn
Yeah. Right. So who do you think has been doing comedy well during COVID, and what has been like your favorite piece of comedy from the past year or so?
Bassam Shawl
Yeah. So I mean, there's a, there's a couple different comedians who have like, really taken, I guess, like, comedy by storm, because look what they've done. One person, I mean, you've probably seen like Sarah Cooper, obviously, that's like, the biggest example. And like, as a comedian, like, Look, I'm not gonna hate on anyone making it but like, is there a level of talent associated with that, probably not. But you know, under these crazy circumstances, you know, in this like, crazy world, like, if that's what people want, whatever, alright, like, I can't hate that. The numbers are speaking for themselves. People are fucking crazy. But there's people like Andrew Schulz. He's like one of these, like, more like sort of like wild comedians. And he's kind of guy who has like, a little more of like an edge to him. He's one of the best, like live performing stand up comedians I've ever seen. When this pandemic hit, he already had his own studio that he built based on his podcast, and he was doing his like, front and facing videos that were basically talking about the news and like politics and like everything that was going on. And he just was able to do it a lot better than most like late night hosts. And like anyone else that was doing on TV, because like he didn't have a filter on there wasn't like, there wasn't a clear sort of like agenda, he would just go with what was funny, or what he thought was funny. Sometimes he would miss, you know, sometimes it's a little corny, sometimes people wouldn't like what he was saying. But like, he basically was the best representation of a comedian who was very successful and just kind of pivoted into a different direction. And like, these videos went viral, like millions of people have seen them. So that's someone who I think, like, figured it out, like, immediately.
And then, you know, as I'm doing, like, you know, I started a podcast, you started a podcast, you know, like, people are finding ways to just like make content, because there's not that sort of way to do that in front of people anymore.
Derek Horn
Right. Right. Um, and I guess even beyond comedy, what does your personal media diet look like? And is there anything that you would recommend to listeners?
Bassam Shawl
I would recommend Derek Horn's podcast. So it's a good one. On the commute.
Derek Horn
I've heard good things about that one, too.
Bassam Shawl
That one's good. Yeah, I listened to I think a variety of different things. A lot of comedians that I'm friends with, they have their own podcasts. So one of my friends, they are the ones called Asian on Asian, which is like, you know, like to like Asian-American guys, both are comedians. Really good at sort of, like, you know, bridging the gap with like, you know, Asian culture and then comedy and I think they found a found like a really good niche. So I like listening to them to get like really good guests like SuChin Pak from MTV way back when, and then like people from like, like Ronnie Chieng, for example. So like, they get really good. Like, you know, people I think in like the Asian sort of pop culture of America. Then there's like a few other things with like, Chapo Trap House, that's like a more of like a leftist socialist, kind of like dirtbag podcast I listened to. And, I mean, whatever it is, I just, I thoroughly appreciate that these guys are really not gonna, you know, be like the guys from like, Pod Save America, where it's like, they're kind of acknowledging how shitty the world is, and they're not going to pretend that like Democrats are going to just fix everything. And you know, Liberalism is the answer to everything. So you can appreciate like that perspective when it comes to politics these days. Yeah, and then just the thing maybe overall media diet.
I don't know, I listened to a lot of just, I guess like TV. I've been watching a lot of TV like a lot of Cobra Kai. I don't know. I work for a company that is basically like, you know, measures and like the ratings for different you know, parts of media so like I'm basically queued in and looped in on like, the most popular things so it's nice that I can kind of like at least go to their catalogue and be like, Alright, this is what people are really like fucking with. So I would say Wandavision obviously, the Lord the Mandalorian, given you know, the background, you know, in of what's going on in your room. Basically, like, you know, every we're seeing that like all of these, like, you know, companies are going like direct to consumer and like, streaming is like overtaking everything. You know, Disney+ is literally going to take Netflix by like 2026 at this point. So like, this pandemic has accelerated I think everyone sort of getting their own sort of subscriptions to things that they want, and basically tailoring their media to their lifestyles. A lot of that obviously is politics, but a lot could just like, you know, be arts and entertainment. And yeah, I don't know, my media diet, I gotta say, like, I'm plugged in, like 24/7. It's not good for me. But, you know, it's the only way to kind of stay sane for me like, I love New York because of the chaoticness of it. And like when this pandemic hit, I was very depressed not to be in New York. Yeah.
Derek Horn
Yeah, I feel like with streaming, I personally feel like we're getting we're approaching a point where there's almost too many options. Not only like, you go to Netflix, and Netflix itself. And there's just so many new things, it's overwhelming, I don't even know where to start. But also, just like the new services popping up, like, Peacock, and now Paramount Plus, and like, like, every media conglomerate is doing their own streaming service. Yep. And I think the ones that are out, like, the more recent ones, like Disney+, and HBO, Max, I think, are generally pretty good. But it's like, I think we're gonna get to this point where, I mean, you think a lot of people cut cable to avoid those giant costs. And we're gonna be approaching this point where people feel like, in order to stay up with everything that they want to watch, they're gonna have to subscribe to at least a half a dozen streaming services. And by that point, you're approaching the cost of cable.
Bassam Shawl
It's gonna be Capitalism Strikes Back, it's, it's always gonna strike that. Yeah, innovation will always just lead to that thing kind of returning here. I mean, it's just like, it's always gonna be that like, dude, the fact that like, ViacomCBS is the name of a company. It's fucking scary. You mean, like, these are conglomerates at this point. And, I mean, I totally agree with you. And like, the market is like, oversaturated. But it's what people really fucking want.
Derek Horn
I do you think it's interesting, kind of like some more niche ones that people can sign up for. Maybe streaming service isn’t the best analogy for that. But even just like Patreon, and even to an extent, OnlyFans, it's kind of like, these micro subscriptions, where you can kind of really custom customize, like what you're buying into which, that that side of it, I think is interesting, but I think kind of like the mass end of it, I think the bubble may be bursting at some point.
Bassam Shawl
Yeah. And for anyone listening, Derek I just dropped his OnlyFans link into our checking it is a little pricey. It's a little pricey, but you know, I get it. You know, he's living up in Harlem
Derek Horn
Top 1%.
Bassam Shawl
Top 1%. That's great. Do you I mean, like, yeah, I mean, what is your media diet normally look like? Because like, you're working from home, obviously. So like, one of the big things that my company was, like, focused on was like, What are the media habits of like remote workers and like, people are like watching a lot of local news or watching like, during the day, obviously, you know, crazy shit popped off from like, you know, like, this summer, and I mean, this entire, you know, five to 10 years, right. So like, it's how do you I don't know, what do you what are you doing to basically stay plugged in?
Derek Horn
Yeah, that's a good question. I haven't really talked about that, from my end on this podcast before but I mean...
Bassam Shawl
Let's talk about you, Derek. Let's talk about your life.
Derek Horn
I mean, starting off, I think just about every day, if not every day, at least a few times a week. I'll listen to the Brian Lehrer show on w NYC.
Bassam Shawl
Shoutout to Rahima Nasa!
Derek Horn
Yeah. But no, I've been listening to him for probably almost five years now. And he does a really, really great job of covering local, national, and I guess to a lesser extent, international news, but has on really interesting guests. He's a great interviewer. Probably one of my main inspirations for this, to be perfectly honest. I've even called him a few times and has been on the air. And there is something about that, that I really do like, is that that live component of it. That is, I think now when so many things are on demand and kind of speaking of streaming, you can like watch things whenever you want. I think there there is something cool to that kind of like immediacy and being able to like literally pick up the phone and call in and yell at Mayor de Blasio in real time. Yeah, so Brian Lehrer I really love interest kind of I think even beyond that I really have gotten into just kind of watching random YouTube videos.
Bassam Shawl
Sure.
Derek Horn
Yes, I'm working especially like on my job, as a designer sometimes a lot of it is just tedious like Photoshop work or things like that, that I can just put on like YouTube videos and zone out to. Like the other day I was watching. I went down this like YouTube wormhole of like how to survive a nuclear explosion. And like what to do if you're near a blast of a nuclear bomb. That was bleak but educational.
Bassam Shawl
Now Derek, as everyone knows, is a member of Qanon. He's gone so far down the YouTube rabbit hole that he's already predicting World War III here. No YouTube is great.
Derek Horn
And then yeah, just like other random things like, even just like random, like company histories or like I don't know I find that stuff interesting like all the weird like failed like McDonald's menu items like just random stuff like that I think are are interesting. Beyond that just kind of podcasts wise I like like a few pop culture podcasts like Who Weekly? I know you're just talking about them. But I do listen to pod save America as kind of a even though I am I am more on the left of them, I would probably say politically, I do think that they frame things up and I think they have an interesting perspective.
Bassam Shawl
Derek, how often are you on Twitter? I think that's the big question here. Because I think that's what makes up most of our media diets. And it is probably the most unhealthy app on the planet. But there is something to it. And you're talking about this, like, you know, instant gratification thing. And like we just talked about, like news and like analysis and like just conversation in general with that's basically become like the central Zeitgeist.
Derek Horn
Twitter didn't even come to mind and this conversation. It's just kind of like water or air at this point.
Bassam Shawl
I know. That's exactly it.
Derek Horn
Can see my just without really even thinking. I also do you think that there is this interesting aspect of Twitter. Specifically with a political conversation, I think it has like, for lack of better term radicalized people or waking them up to a lot of different things that they might not have been aware of without it. And I think from that perspective, it's a good thing. I think on the adverse side of that, I definitely have seen kind of this hive mind. In some instances where kind of people just
Bassam Shawl
KamalaHive, you're specifically talking about the Vice President of United States. Notice that Derek said, the hive, the KamalaHive, he didn't say Donald Trump as the adverse effects of Twitter, he, he mentioned a Black woman in a first South Asian woman as vice president. And that is cancelable.
Derek Horn
Thank you, thank you for calling me out. My choice of words, I will do better? No. But no, I mean, I mean, I even think that, I don't know, I don't I think that the canceled culture is definitely something that is overly, I don't think that exists in the way that people talk about it. I do think that there. I think that there is occasionally a lack of nuance with certain issues, and kind of like people kind of saying, Oh, these people I follow are on this side of this. I know that because they're on this side of this issue. I'm following my throwing my support behind it wholeheartedly. And that, I mean, I think that that it, especially now that kind of when that is the community for many people, it's like, I get that. And I get that poll. I mean, even seeing, like even going through your Twitter feed, it's like seeing what things people are liking, like saying so and so like this tweet, or retweeting and that I think that goes a long way to kind of shape and form people's perception of
Bassam Shawl
Yeah, perception of each other, absolutely.
Derek Horn
So, I don't know, I think that it's an interesting dynamic.
Bassam Shawl
It's an interesting dynamic media digestion, because, like, um, regarding the canceled culture thing, so I think the biggest thing that I have taken away from Twitter is that it's not real life, you know, what I mean? Like, I think I think that, like, so many people, I think, see the avalanches of you know, different political ideologies and will automatically assume that that is like, the sort of favored policy or favorite sort of narrative by most people in the world. And it's very much like an echo chamber, obviously, like we know who you follow and yada yada. But um, you know, I've never found the app to be great at nuance or any sort of like balanced coverage, like you really have to, like go out of your way to sort of formulate your own opinion, or not basically, like look at the timeline and be like, this is the way I should start thinking about something.
And for me, that app is just like, how can I make fun of something that's going on in this crazy world right now. And I think like, when I first got on Twitter, I think it was very much a different, like, rap, I have a different spiel, you know, I think like, nowadays, like, you know, it's funny that Trump is off the app, because I feel like a lot of people have, like, lost so much of their personalities and their perspectives, which is fine, because, you know, he was a piece of shit. But ultimately, like, we're seeing that our government is just incompetent, and there is evil people that have consistently been in there. And this guy was just a little more, he was just a little more loud about it. And he had the opportunity to basically grift his way into into power with Twitter, you know, and the only reason why he was amplified, because like these big Twitter numbers, but then like, the fucking media, he gave him a lot of coverage. And that ultimately, kind of, like, you know, set this whole thing off. So like, you know, I don't know where that app really fits in sort of, like positives and negatives, but all I know, is that like, when people and companies especially because like I work for, so I work in social media for the company that I work for, so like, most of the time, I'm on Twitter, and I'm either looking at these, like, you know, corporate sort of tweets going on, or I'm looking at, like, just like, you know, a cesspool of like, you know, all the people that I follow, and it's a lot of information overload a lot. But that's what social media is, it's like a huge city, you know, that's just like, there's a lot of shit that you can and shouldn't pay attention to. And there's some things that you know, if you find interesting, you should go check it out.
Derek Horn
Yeah, I guess, I guess social media and the tolls that it takes. Maybe a good segue to this next section. But have you faced any mental health challenges during the past year? And how have you coped with them?
Bassam Shawl
Yeah, absolutely. So my whole thing, you know, I was not living a, like a healthy life, I would say, maybe the pre-pandemic. So my schedule was basically my nine to five, nine to six. And then I think from six to like, midnight, or six to one o'clock in the morning, I'm doing something standup related. That includes the weekdays, so and then the weekends, like, at night, like Saturday, Friday, Saturday night, like those are the past shows. So like those are working against for me. So like when everyone's having fun, like, that's me working. But I'm obviously still having fun, because this is what I want to do. But that wasn't necessarily great. For my health. I had really bad bags under my eyes. I wasn't working out as much. I wasn't dating anyone seriously, not that I, you know, maybe I think wanted at the time, but like, I definitely think I had really unhealthy relationships. And yeah, I was just tired. My room, my apartment was a complete piece of shit. I didn't really set up my room at all. Like, it's just like a bed. It was just somewhere I needed to crash. And I didn't really put so much nuance in my apartment, I was on South 10th in Williamsburg. And that's basically like, the Hasidic area. So like, it's just not a fun area. But yeah, so all these things were going on. I was busy, and I was happy with what I was doing. But at the same time, I was kind of miserable, because that wasn't necessarily doing the material that I wanted to be doing. And just a whole bunch of other like, shift related comedy, because comedy is ultimately I think, one of the most depressing things, and it's the most stressful thing, but it's also giving me the most meaning my meaning before, but the most meaning in my life ever. But like there's the highs are very high, the lows are very low. So you already add that to like New York City and like it's just like a recipe for disaster. '
So I think at the time when the pandemic hit, I was back in Maryland for a little bit. And my parents had moved on to the DC area. And it was something that I was like, Okay, I'm missing New York, right? And then I'm just understanding that like, I'm working remote, and I'm usually pretty good office guy. So I'm working remote. I do all this work, and I'm with my parents and like, that's not really fun to hang out to parents, and then I can't do anything at night, stand up wise and so like right then and there like yeah, I'm basically depressed. So for like the first like, you know, three, four months to quarantine like, you know everyone's going through it. I'm not writing any material, thankfully get back to New York. I get back to New York in May and you know, I meet my girlfriend that helped a lot. And that was a big mental health left on me outdoor shows a returning in New York that helped a lot too. But yeah, I mean, how did I cope with it like I was a lot of pot Derek a lot of pot, and a lot of pot, lot of yoga. That was the best thing to do is like my girlfriend and I like we got a Peloton membership. She got the bike and I started exercising, I think like five, six days a week. And I didn't have time to do that when I was doing stand up. And I didn't have time to get to know a girl when I was doing stand up either. So the fact that I got to meet this girl who like basically is like my soulmate. And the fact that she lives five blocks away from you is like, absolutely crazy. But the fact that I got to meet her with all this time on my hands, like I think we've spent every single day together for the past, like maybe seven months, and I wouldn't have it any other way. Like, it's, it's incredible. And that wouldn't have happened, I wouldn't have had the opportunity to meet her maybe or I wouldn't have the opportunity to even like get to know her or like consider her or take her seriously maybe if I was doing stand up because I just wouldn't have time or I'd be distracted by other things.
So, mental health, I think like at the start of the pandemic, it was pretty bad. But I think right now, you know, as bleak as the world is right now, like personally, like I feel very at peace with who I am. And I think I know what I want out of stand up. And I think I know what I want out of my relationship with my girlfriend. And I think I just know where ultimately like I want to have my career go. And you know, sometimes people needed that that sort of pandemic timeout. It's, it's terrible that it's come to such a bad cost. Obviously, there's so many people in so many lives have been ruined. But I think once like life slows down for a second, you really kind of don't take for granted what you have. And look at what actually matters to you. You know that it's giving me perspective dependent? Exactly. Give me perspectives. Anyone has, I'm sure.
Derek Horn
Nice. Yeah, I think that I've talked about this with a few other people before, but it's like this moment kind of forced a lot of people to stop the cycles that they were in and kind of pulled them out of that in a way that likely would never have been otherwise. Which I think for many people, like you said it's kind of this silver lining of it all. Yeah, I don't know. For me, specifically, I think that I have been hitting this wall lately. With the pandemic, I think it's like a combination of like, the weather and just kind of not really feeling good. I have a ton to look forward to. My fiance Joey just started going back to work in person, so kind of alone during the day. But more than, that has been kind of a new challenge for me. But getting through it, It's like seeing the vaccines happen. It's like that is choppy as it's been that's been giving me some hope, like both my parents like this upcoming weekend, have appointments to get the vaccine, which is like going to be a major stress off my shoulders. Because it's like, I've been more worried about other people during all of this then I have myself. So, see ya, I think that like there are definitely signs for hope. But I just I just feel like it's been. I don't know, I think it's this combination of things, but just really going through it.
Bassam Shawl
That's back in Syracuse you say your parents are getting the vaccine?
Yeah. So like my, my parents still have a house up there. So like my dad still works at St. Joe's. And I think the last time I was there, actually, I was doing my half hour at funk and waffles. But it's so interesting because I'm kind of surprised at how many people stayed in our hometown. And I think once we see the how the pandemic has shaped you know, people's movements now. You can understand why people are moving to smaller markets like people are leaving in New York. And like I never for one second thought about leaving New York. I think during the pandemic I think that my parents were very much like New York's never coming back. It's dead blah blah blah. This is like in May while I'm watching like just like CNN and you know Cuomo being like, you know, fucking idiot on the news, and I didn't believe them because like, I really like believe in the city. I love this city, it's my favorite city in the world. But I understand why a lot of people you know, will obviously make that migration but for me, like I remember like the thought or the idea of going back to Syracuse at my age. I was not, never gonna happen. Like, I think that was one of my worst fears growing up. And that's it just completely like shit on like the hometown at all, but it's mostly just I'm kind of surprised that like, there's a lot of people who have like, kind of like just like maintained that community, they didn't want to, like, branch out, you know, and I like the fact that like in the city, like we have, like a bunch of people that, you know, we were friends with when we did like, you know, like musicals and stuff and like in high school, and like, we're able to sort of like connect and do shit together and as a city before the pandemic. And I hope that happens again soon. But it's just like I don't know this wild where I feel like my when I when I studied abroad in Turkey for I did my semester, like my service abroad semester in Istanbul. I remember coming back in like mid January to Syracuse. And I think that feeling was reminiscent of how I was doing during the pandemic, where it's like, I just came from like this, like, cosmopolitan, like chaotic city with like, so much like culture and like nightlife and like food, blah, blah, blah. And then now I'm back in like my snowy college town, and like, I have to drive everywhere. Everyone is inside, you know what I mean? Like, it just it reminded me of that for a long time. So yeah, I mean, hey, I'm just glad that you know, hopefully New York is is on the way back. You know,
Derek Horn
I think it will be I think, once we're out of this people are just going to be ready to go out to eat, go to bars, and clubs and concerts and live shows. All that stuff.
Bassam Shawl
Did you ever come to a show?
Derek Horn
I think at least one or two. I think I honestly I think I still have the ticket in my Apple wallet. If you want me to pull it up right now.
Bassam Shawl
You're gonna pull up receipts? Yeah. I believe you. I believe you. Yeah, yeah. No, that's, that's great. Yeah, I remember, it was just like, it was a good time. All these all these things like dude like that, to show that I put it in put on in Brooklyn. Like that bar doesn't exist anymore? You know, it's, uh, yeah, it's just kind of crazy.
Derek Horn
It is. Do you have any role models? And if so, how do you try to emulate or honor them?
Bassam Shawl
Interesting role models? No, at this point, there's a lot of comedians that I look up to, just in terms of like, how they sort of built the career and like the work that they put in and the stuff that they talk about. If I have role models, like, you know, I think my biggest one is my brother growing up, like he's like eight years older. So he's already kind of like playing the like mentor card. He also went to Syracuse, like, you know, I basically copied his major, like, word for word, bar for bar. And during the same fraternity, so like, there was a lot of things, like, you know, I was definitely trying to, like, you know, have in common with him, but we're very different people. Very, very different people. Now, he just had a kid, so I'm really excited for him. And he lives in DC. He's like, a really big, like cybersecurity honcho. But if I would say that, you know, role models, you know, him probably like my dad, just for, like, you know, the work that he's put into coming to this country and doing his thing. But, you know, I don't know, I mean, there's a lot of people, I guess I've taken inspiration from when I was just like, barking on the streets. That's when we're, you know, like, you're calling out for your comedy club, like, you know, you're doing it in this weather, where it's like, February weather, January weather, and you kind of had to look at yourself, and you're like, Why? Why am I doing this? I have a degree, like yada, yada. But then like, you know, there's something that I think that I see where my dad and my brother were like, they work hard at something and they're passionate about it. So like, this is something that I'm passionate about, I should absolutely sort of take this seriously. And this is an opportunity of privilege to do it, you know, like, I think the the ability to get on stage like that was something that, yeah, again, I won't take forever for granted again. But as far as role models, like, No, I think, you know, I wouldn't say Obama, that's all I'll say or Kamala. Yeah. What did Rachel Renock say?
Derek Horn
I don't think she opted into that question.
Bassam Shawl
She didn't have any question. Okay. Yeah. But she was, you know, I, when I worked for her accent, when I moved to New York, I worked for her. And I actually, I, I don't, we don't really talk too much anymore. But that's something I really admired. Because she really did chase her passion. And when she let me go, she basically was like, Look, I know you very well, in the fact that like, this is not your passion. And like you're not 100% as a company. And it's like, and I know that and that's fine. But like, it doesn't work for us here. It's not gonna work right now. And we had that conversation where she's like, yeah, I have to eventually climb a ladder. It's like a ladder. It's either here at this company or in comedy, and I chose comedy, and I think there's a part of That obviously respected that. But this other part that's like, you know, cut the losses we need to kind of move on. And, you know, I, from what she's done, I completely admire her. Um, so that's someone who I think like, you know, I'm glad that we went to high school in college with because seeing her sort of like hustle and her grit, like, that gave me some sort of like, you know, inspiration when I got here too.
Derek Horn
Nice, um, are there is you think back kind of to the journey and hustle to where you are now, have you had any kind of memorable moments of clarity, and how have they impacted your journey to where you are now?
Bassam Shawl
Yeah, for sure. Um, so I remember there was this one show. So I was coming back from California, I had done shows in San Francisco, and they all want me pretty well. And then I came back to New York, and I was booked on this really popular show in Crown Heights, it's called Brown Privilege. And that show, as it's set up, and sounds like it, I should do well, at that show. Um, I get up, I don't have a good set, it's not that great of a set. It's not a bad bad set, but it's not a good set. And it's a set that when I walk off, I feel shitty about myself. At that point, I had to sort of look myself in the mirror and be like, what's, what's the issue here. And then I sort of realized that when I didn't believe in my jokes, but then to I don't think my jokes were that good, they weren't that original. And that was a big sort of moment of realization. For me. When you start comedy, people have this sort of sense of like, you should just say something ridiculous, or like, you know, say something that's kind of like has like a shock value, you have to sort of figure out like, what actually is funny for the longest time, and you got to figure out like, what your quote-unquote, voice is. So at that point in time, like I thought I had, I was like, very over cocky, I think I overexposed myself, at a lot of like big showcases, because I wasn't ready for them, but like I had enough like, sort of, like, social clout to get on them. Um, so now, when that happened, I basically took a step back, and you can have to work more on the craft, you have to work more on like, you know, figuring out like, what works with different audiences, how to read the room better, all that all those things. So what's great is that, like, when you do stand up, you really have that instant feedback. And, like, for example, I had I did a show yesterday, outdoor show, social distance, everyone's cool. But that was the first time I was on stage, I think in like, maybe a month or two. And the previous time that I went on stage, it was like, on the corner of like a lower east side street. You know, like, it's like one of those shacks and like, people are like, barely paying attention, it's cold out. It wasn't that great of a set. And I felt bad about it, because I panicked, and I just went into like my old material. Last night, though, there was a lot different, everyone was like engaged watching the show, I had more time to do stand up. And I got to work on new stuff. And they can tell I was excited about it, because it was new stuff. And they responded well to the new stuff. So like, you can really just like kind of like get a sense of like, Okay, if you just kind of be a little more authentic, and kind of have to be more yourself. That's basically what the audience is going to connect with. So like, I think back then, I was very much like, kind of like putting on like, this is who I am on stage. But you also have to, like, be like, Alright, no, you have to be the same person who are off stage on stage. So it's taken some time to get there. But I think I'm at the point now where like, I think I am comfortable with what I write how I perform, and I think the versatility of different rooms and locations that I can perform in.
Derek Horn
Nice. Yeah, I think I think that I mean, even if people aren't like comedy experts, or whatever, I think people can tell just an innate human sense, like when somebody is authentic, or when they're just kind of like on autopilot or kind of phoning in and not say you're phoning it in, but like people can sense that stuff. And I think that that is like a really, I mean, even people for people who aren't in comedy may be doing other things. I think that is a valuable takeaway.
Bassam Shawl
Yeah, and like, this is such an interesting thing. We're like, I was talking to one of my close comedian friends, and he was commenting on I think, just like my, like, sense of humor and jokes that I was doing, I think, like, maybe a year ago, he's like, you seem like someone who was like, very anxious to sort of like one prove themselves, but also to, like, try to get laid after the set, you know, like, tried to basically just try to like, you know, like, basically, like, you know, impress someone like in the audience. And I thought about that long and hard. I'm like, I think you have a point there. And I think, you know, my intentions, you know, I had a bit of a glow-up maybe, you know, like, I wasn't necessarily like you know, maybe as confident or you know, as talented as I am now back then. And I think there was like a part of me that like, I need to make up for that. And weirdly enough, like when I started getting obviously serious, my girlfriend, like I think about what my priorities are on stage. And what my friends said actually made a lot of sense. And now I see that and like the type of jokes that I write now, so it's very clear that like, you know, as you grow up, you know, your comedy grows up. But it's important that like, you kind of don't lose sight of like, what's actually, what's going to make you funny, and you know, you don't kind of get lost in the sauce, man, you know, I was, yeah, yeah, I think I was definitely focused on some of the wrong things when you get to New York. So
Derek Horn
Yeah, yeah. And I mean, it is interesting you say that. I feel like not that I feel like I ever went too far in the wrong direction. But I feel like when I moved to New York, I'm, like you I feel like I had experienced a little bit of a glow up...
Bassam Shawl
Yeah, bro. You know, you glowed up in college, too. First of all, I was happy to say that, like, we maybe crossed paths occasionally at Syracuse, but I was always like, yeah, Derek is looking good. I am glad. Because like, before, he was like the Lion and like, now he is blossomed into this king, a lion king, If you guys don't know, Derek was the Lion in our school’s production of The Wiz. And no, there was not a majority Black cast, that was something that our teacher overlooked. But nonetheless, I was really happy to see that you were killing it at the Warehouse. And, yeah, I'm glad that we both have maintained our glow-ups in the best in the world.
Derek Horn
Thank you. Yeah, I think that, like, with gay culture, specifically, I think there's a lot of people that go through similar experiences back in their hometowns, and they come to New York. And then it's this kind of, specifically in the Gay neighborhoods, like in Hell's Kitchen, or the West Village is kind of this swirl of all these other people in this similar situation. So it's like kind of a lot of toxic things can pop up, where people think that they have to act or look a certain way in order to be accepted. And I think that that breeds a lot of inauthenticity. When I met Joey as well, I think that kind of broke me out of not that I ever, like I said, I don't think I ever felt too far deep into it. I always kind of kept that side of Gay culture, it a little bit of an arm's length. But I think that it really did wake me up to kind of even some of the things I didn't realize were seeping into my head and kind of expectations and standards and things like that I had set for myself. It woke me up to that.
Bassam Shawl
Yeah, I mean, both you and I were able to sort of lean into our sort of identities by walking away from like, our hometown, you know, cuz obviously, just I think I've embraced a lot more of my culture, and I become a lot more comfortable in like my skin, and just like the way I was raised, and I think that, like, you no longer had to sort of like deal with like, the homophobia and then like, like, bullshit that was like going on, like upstate New York. And like, because of that, like, we're actually allowed to, like, be ourselves, but we actually will find people who look like us who like, yeah, talk about the things that we wanted to talk about, like, and like, that was important. It's like, basically, yeah, you want to find like, you know, your community. And, you know, obviously, the city offers that. But you know, people get offered that online too. But I'm happy that, you know, we both managed to at least find our flow there.
Anyway, one of my one of my earliest memories of you, Derek is really one of my earliest memories is, is I'm not gonna even name this guy, but he's like, hey, "Derek, aren't you horny?" And you're just I just remember you just rolling your eyes like burling your fist. You just like wanted to beat the fuck out of this kid And we all did. Derek. We all did. But, you know, he was at the Capitol. We'll find him. Oh, yeah. No, he was alright. Anyway. Um, yeah. But you know, it's, it's, it's great to be here. Thank you so much.
Derek Horn
Thank you. No, I was actually thinking about the time, I think it was sixth grade. I think we were in like, social studies class, and I like was feeling sick. So I got up. And I asked the teacher for a pass the nurse and then I literally threw up in front of the entire class. And it was, I think you and I don't remember who the other person was, but you were like, examining it on the ground like oh, did you have bacon for breakfast.
Bassam Shawl
Oh, no. Oh, no,
Derek Horn
I like all that is seared into my memory.
Bassam Shawl
Oh, man I'm sorry, that comment on your dietary sort of restrictions there. But yeah, I mean, that's wild man. I don't remember that at all. That's hilarious. It's just so funny when we remember in like sixth grade.
Derek Horn
Truly.
So starting to wrap things up one day hopefully this period will be behind us. When you imagine that day, what are you most hopeful for?
Bassam Shawl
So your question, yeah, I mean, I'm hopeful the city comes back, obviously, I'm hopeful that like, my wedding is going to be lit and can have like a lot of people. I'm pretty big on having big crowds. My girlfriend has like 54 first cousins. And then like, I have like a lot of cousins too. So like, it's going to be an extravaganza. So I'm hopeful that like, you know, that'll be an event that we both really like. Obviously, for comedy, I'm submitting like a lot of like writing materials to like a lot of different TV shows. So I'm hoping that like, one of these can stick I'm sure you saw this on Twitter, everyone was trying to write for Jon Stewart. So like, it's, that's something that like comes up, I think maybe every like one or two months from like, my manager, and it's just a numbers game. Some people will get it randomly. It's just like the lottery. It's like the fucking SAT, ACT scores, you know, just you never know. So I'm hopeful I can land something like that. Um, ideally, I can also just get myself in front of the camera. I think that's one of the bigger things that I think I'll want to get out of comedy is to kind of just be in, you know, probably film or television at some point. And then yeah, I think just overall, just getting back on stage consistently. I mean, that was, I think, my calling in life randomly. I think that like, there was no point in time where I felt miserable for doing a show. It was only feeling miserable about the comedy that I was doing. So I'm just getting the opportunity to get that, again, is something that I really cannot wait for. And yeah, hopefully, you know, Derek and and Joey and Luna will will be in attendance.
Derek Horn
Yes, I hope so, too. Can you let people know where they can find you online? And is there anything that you want to plug in particular?
Bassam Shawl
Absolutely. Um, you can find me at @bassamshawl spelled phonetically on tik tok on Twitter, YouTube, Instagram, not clubhouse yet. I'm just kind of figuring out what that app’s all about. Parler maybe. If they want to listen to my podcast, I have a podcast. It's called Wokemanistan I co-produced it with the very talented Monis Khan, where we basically are talking about like Left issues and the NBA and being South Asian. So it's a really good podcast. Very, not niche at all. And yeah, I don't know. I'm doing some shows in Austin. So if anyone listens to Derek, and you know, he lives in Austin, I'm doing like seven shows out there in March. So if you want to come and see me, I'd love for you to be in the audience.
Derek Horn
Nice. Well, thank you, again for joining today. It's been a great, uh, wide-ranging conversation.
Bassam Shawl
Thanks, Derek. And you're the man man. I appreciate you.
Hey, you know, it's interesting cuz like, you know, you call me Bassam. You're one of the very few people that I grew up with who went from like the Bashi to the Somme thing. And I was like, very much telling everyone I'm like, you can still call me Bash, you can still call me Bash. But then there's certain people who I'm like, No, you only can call me Bassam. But Derek, you're one of the very few exceptions that can play both ways.
Derek Horn
Oh, well, I mean, I try to respect, that's what you want to be called, then. I want to honor that.
Bassam Shawl
So no, call me by your name here.
Derek Horn
Oh, Jesus. All right. I'll talk to you later.
Bassam Shawl
Alright, thanks, man.