Episode #2 - Joon Park on Future-Proofing, Deference, & Queer Magic
Derek Horn (00:07):
Welcome back to In These Uncertain Times, a podcast about creating and connecting in the midst of uncertainty. I’m your host, Derek Horn.
One of the reasons I wanted to create this podcast is to highlight some of the incredible people I know in personal and, professional capacities. Today’s guest, Joon Park, is a perfect example of a friend who has crossed between those two circles and has made my life all the better for it.
I met Joon when they were a student and I was an organizer at the Out for Undergrad Marketing Conference. Out for Undergrad, or O4U, is an incredible non-profit organization that helps LGBTQ+ undergraduate students reach their full potential and become future leaders in the industries of Business, Tech, Engineering and Marketing.
After attending O4U as a student, Joon joined the team of organizers for the 2019 O4U Marketing Conference. It was an absolute pleasure working alongside them to build more thoughtful and inclusive programming and inject Queer magic through all of our conference touchpoints.
Joon Park (they/them) is a cultural strategist at sparks & honey, where they consult tech, beauty, and food & beverage clients on how to futureproof their businesses. They are one of the founding members of GLAAD’s Campus Ambassador program and are a recipient of GLAAD’s first Rising Stars Grant, which annually honors LGBTQ+ changemakers across the nation. Since then, they’ve been featured in publications like Seventeen, Teen Vogue, and the Huffington Post, where they continue to bring visibility to the next generation of leaders. Joon is an alum of the ADCOLOR FUTURES program and is the first transgender non-binary Mx. ADCOLOR. They have also spoken on stages like Cannes and ADCOLOR about topics like precision data, ethical design, and workplace diversity.
Before diving into our interview, I want to offer a heads up that our conversation briefly touches upon depression and suicidal thoughts. If you or someone you know is in crisis, please reach out to the National Suidicide Hotline at 1-800-273-8255 where someone is ready to help.
Without further ado, here is our conversation.
Derek Horn (02:20):
Thank you Joon. Thank you for joining me today on In These Uncertain Times. How are you doing?
Joon Park (02:25):
Good, I'm really happy to be here. Like seriously, it's such an honor that you thought of me. Derek and I go way back. So I'm really happy to see this creation come to life and I'm excited to participate.
Derek Horn (02:39):
Of course, I'm really glad that you said yes, because I think that you are somebody that a lot of people should be paying attention to.
Joon Park (02:47):
Thanks.
Derek Horn (02:49):
Do you want to take a moment to just tell everybody about what you do in your own words?
Joon Park (02:53):
Sure. So my name is Joon, like the month, once again, they/them pronouns. I’m kind of freshly out of college. I'm just kidding, maybe it's a little too late for me to say that, but about two years out of college, I am currently a cultural strategist at a consultancy called sparks & honey.
I think a lot of people get the impression that because I'm a cultural strategist, like I tend to touch work that touches more upon diversity, inclusion and equity work, but that's really not the case. When we talk about culture in the same ways that we talk about like social strategy, cultural strategy is just a way of kind of explaining how we view brands through the lens of culture at large. So whatever is happening at a food and beverage company might also impact how beauty retailers have to operate. And so it's taking a much more holistic, kind of horizontal approach and helping brands Future-Proof their businesses by taking into consideration all the other kinds of disparate elements that they might not be privy to. And I'm also a Gemini in case I didn't mention.
Derek Horn (03:50):
Me too. So like you said, your role at sparks & honey involves helping clients future-proof their business, has your working definition of future-proof been impacted by the kind of ground shaking developments we've experienced this year?
Joon Park (04:05):
You know, one of the best parts of working at sparks & honey is that it really helps out when I'm investing in the stock market, but it also helps out because we can really identify some large kind of macro level problems pretty early on. And so even with COVID, we were pretty much tracking the effects of COVID in China's market way before we even had our first outbreak in America, in the States. And so essentially, given that we had a pulse on how COVID was impacting business in other markets, essentially we future proof ourselves by essentially conveying the behemoth of a challenge that COVID was going to present to so many of our partners out of very early kind of cadence. And so when it comes to like actual work that we do at sparks & honey, we were actually very prepared to help and guide our partners in how to navigate these uncertain times so much so that for awhile, I'm not going to lie. There was a bit of joy missing in our work because so much of it seemed to be so related to COVID-19.
And of course then around June, there was, there was like the resurgence of the Black Lives Matter movement, which we also kind of had to position ourselves to help our clients do that as well. And so of course when these like super national events happen sparks & honey is a little bit more positioned to identify those rather early on, but then the problem then becomes how do we make our work exciting in a way that it doesn't feel as heavy to the times? And I think that's been a personal challenge of mine.
And of course, as things are kind of shaking towards equilibrium, we're seeing less and less of energy directed towards more heavy hitting subjects like COVID-19 and such, but that was kind of the summer where a lot of it was navigating fire drills for a lot of our clients, especially as they were anticipating a pending recession and, you know, completely changing business operations and so on and so forth.
Derek Horn (06:07):
Yeah. It's interesting. You say that we're kind of reaching this state of equilibrium, I'm kind of getting back to normal, because I know at least that the case numbers and the actual pandemic aren’t slowing down. It's almost like I think people are just kind of for better or for worse getting bored of it and bored of being cooped up inside and doing all these things that we're were told to do. And I dunno, it's going to be really interesting to see how the situation evolves in the fall and the winter.
Joon Park (06:37):
Absolutely.
Derek Horn (06:38):
So back in March, New York city went into lockdown and most office workers like you and I had to conduct business from home. So what is your work from home set up look like? And what did it look like at the beginning? Has it evolved since then?
Joon Park (06:55):
Yeah. You know, one of the things about working in marketing is that you have to be incredibly nimble and my kind of tests of "nimbility", if that's a word, how flexible I can be, was tested even before COVID when I had to kind of pack up my bags all in one week and moved back to the East coast after having maybe spent six months in the West coast, in Los Angeles for work. And then essentially when our LA office closed down, like I had to suddenly figure out how I was going to restructure my life in New York. And I say that to say that when I was kind of in a hurry, moving back to New York did not pay as much attention to like what my living situation would look like. And for me the priority was just getting back and then hitting the ground running.
And how could I have accounted for the fact that, you know, we'd be working from home for the indefinite future. And so essentially I completely did not plan to have this happen in my life personally.
My room is incredibly small, so it's my living room and I shared the space with two other roommates. And so, you know, initially what was really exciting about the fact that like I no longer have to commute and like I was like saving time because I could kind of work around my own schedule. You know, sometimes at work you find yourself in like lull periods where like you really have nothing to do, so you're like trying to force work. And so in that case obviously during lockdown, like it was really easy for me to spend the time as I wanted it that said I think increasingly over time, especially as it becomes unclear and more and more indefinite of how long we're going to be living like this.
I'm finding myself in a position now where I have to really triage and set up a contingency plan because personally the way that my office worked from home structure is set up. Like I don't personally see it becoming very sustainable.
And I also find that a lot of my mental health challenges that have arisen over the past month are that it seems so difficult for me to separate work from my life when like I'm literally doing work on my bed. So I don't have the answers yet, but as you might have also experienced herself, like this is an incredible challenge that I think a lot of us are going through. And I think specifically the part about the forced kind of collision of work and home, as we know, it all being in one space is a huge challenge that a lot of us are going through. And I'm certainly not exempt from that as well.
Derek Horn (09:35):
Of course. Yeah. I mean, like you're saying, I think it was like none of us were expecting to go through this. It was almost overnight that we had to completely, rehaul the way that we do our jobs. And I think that, especially in New York, like you're saying, not every New York apartment is designed to have like a spacious home office set up by any means. So I think it definitely has required a lot of trial and error and seeing what works and whatnot. And I thinkI do think that that also that blurring of the line between work and life is just so tricky as well. I mean the best I can, I try you kind of block off my time for like lunch and then kind of my start and end times during the day, but it's, it's often easier said than done. It's always easy to answer that last email or a notification rather than just putting it aside and moving on with your night.
So what are your primary methods of communication with your team, your clients, and have that evolved through this period?
Joon Park (10:41):
So, you know, when you work from home, you start to kind of notice the small, but very important things that are missing from your life when you're not in an office. And for me specifically as a strategist who works out of very strategically centered consultancy where our main output is strategy I used to take it really for granted of like how I could just look over at the teammates sitting next to me and just riff with them. They're casually like, "Hey, do you know a brand that's doing this?" And like, it was just like a very nonchalant thing that didn't require too much effort. You know, the trade-off to losing that because honestly, so like I have kind of lost that communal riffing that we often do back in the office. In exchange, what I found is that I'm that much more specialized in my role.
And like specifically the clients I serve because I'm like almost exclusively interfacing with my direct teams, which primarily deal with our beauty and food and beverage and tech clients. As opposed to in the past where I might've felt more like a generalist when it came to like how our partner clients navigate the world. I become a bit of an expert in my own right specifically because now we have like created specific echo chambers for our teams. And so that is the one thing that I'm really appreciative about is that because I'm constantly interacting with like the beauty people within our company, it's just, it's just much more efficient and like I have my marching orders and there's like less noise. And so I think that's been a huge benefit of kind of working remotely and also having to change our communication patterns.
Derek Horn (12:25):
Yeah. I definitely, there is that element of being in person, both with your team and also kind of, I, that I personally miss being out in the city itself, like New York is obviously just such a treasure trove of inspiration and stuff. And my office used to be down in Soho and it was just so great to be able to go out on lunch and just pop into random boutiques or stores and see what's going on. That's one thing I really have come to miss during this period is that level of kind of spontaneity during your day that otherwise New York City allows you.
So how do you stay inspired? What is your media diet look like? Where are you looking for inspiration?
Joon Park (13:07):
Yeah. You know, full disclosure, I think, I mean, regardless of who you are, I think this summer was an incredibly seminal moment for all of us. And certainly for myself, it was a period where I realized a lot of hard truths about myself, which is that, you know, when I obviously work as a marketer, I have to put on my marketer hat, but given the kind of urgency of everything that's happening in the world right now, where people are being displaced from their homes, where like people are dying at the hands of state violence, there's a lot more urgent issues that seem so salient to me that I cannot ignore. And it's very difficult. I'm kind of having to reconcile with that when like, from your nine to five, like you have to help your beauty client sell more products at Sephora or et cetera, et cetera.
And so, you know, I know this was a question about media diets, but I think, interestingly, also while kind of being someone who was in the States right now, I've also realized that like, I don't really want to work in diversity inclusion and equity work either because simply, as a trans person who has a lot at stake, like it is just way too much emotional expenditure for me to focus on things that directly impact me and like have my paychecks tied to that. And like that be my livelihood?
That said, I still find myself really yearning for my activist past. And when I was like a young college student kind of in the streets organizing protests and stuff. And so you know, I'm still very happy to put on my marketer 9-to-5 hat on, but like when I'm not doing that, like I've been doing a lot of reading, especially because I think the current times I've also really interrogated our personal relationship with like finances. So like for example, over the summer we saw a lot of movement where there was a, like a lot of grassroots organizing and a lot of mutual funds. And so I've just been spending a lot of time reading especially from like huge legends, like Angela Davis just like rethinking the idea of community. Yeah. And so, I've been reading a lot.
Derek Horn (15:29):
Well, that's good. Yeah. I think that it, it definitely is something I've struggled with as well, trying to put on your marketer hat during the day and kind of trudge away at your work when literally it feels like the world is burning around you. And it's challenging, because like, especially living in New York, it's not cheap. It's like, in order to just even survive, you do have to have a paycheck and kind of be able to support yourself and have that roof over your head. So that's something that I've struggled with as well as, it's almost self preservation in a way where you kind of just got to take care of your needs and the basics, and then do what you can with what other time and privilege and what anything else you have to spend -money- is an important one as well.
For me personally, it's a privilege to have a paycheck that allows me to relatively comfortable lifestyle and finding ways to spread that around to folks in communities that really need it right now is super important. So I've just been trying to take it day by day and do what I can with the resources I have. Cause at the end of the day, you're not gonna able to do every single thing.
Joon Park (16:47):
Yeah. And I also find myself like really getting to like stuck in like rabbit holes where like, I feel a lot of like my work kind of diminishing day by day because perhaps I'm not like really interfacing with work. That seems as impactful in the moment. But like in those moments and, perhaps this is a hot take, but I like also have to remind myself that like, maybe as a trans person of color, like I just owe it to myself to like get through.
And certainly if I was like a straight white man, none of this would escape or all of this would like escape my head. I'm like, I would just be allowed to just be a strategist and just be good at my job. And like, in those instances where like I'm feeling extra unproductive and like feeling really kind of regretful about my choices. Like it is just a nice reminder that like, you know what? Fuck it. I owe it to myself to just get the bills paid. And like, it sucks that like, as a trans person, I also have to like, think about the world outside me, but sometimes, I give myself permission to navigate life as a man who like, doesn't have to think as much, especially in moments of like personal crisis where like, I just don't have the bandwidth to be like taking all that in.
Derek Horn (17:57):
Well, I'm glad you've been able to carve that out for yourself at moments. So, like you were talking about, there's so much relentless, stressful news and kind of relentless barrage of crap going on in the world. What are some ways that you stay present and true to yourself, disconnect if you have to?
Joon Park (18:15):
Yeah. You know, as we continue to be like barraged by bad news, it also puts us in a very uncomfortable situation when you have good news to share. For example, there are a couple of people who got promoted over the summer. Like that's like a little embarrassing to share, especially like when things are so shaky right now. And to that, I think I've just accepted that right now as a collective, all of us are grieving and that is the state of times. And, you know, if my present self just feels down in the moment, I don't need to rectify and diagnose that right away. Like it's just like the ethos that all of us are breathing through. And, I don't know, that gives me a lot of comfort knowing that like my present self is hurting and that's okay. And like no immediate need to like correct that because I know everyone else is one going to be more understanding of where I am and probably also going through similar challenges myself as I am.
Derek Horn (19:25):
Yeah. I think I actually touched on this in my last conversation with Katie Martell, but I think that this moment has allowed a lot of people to, especially in a bustling city like New York, when it just feels like you're kind of always going, going, going, going, going, when you kind of remove that hustle and bustle from your daily life, you're kind of forced to sit with what you really have in front of you and really take stock of it. And I think that it's really important to acknowledge all of those things rather than suppress them in ways that I think that the old way of life, so to speak, allowed us to do? I think that it definitely is, it can be challenging at times, but I think that that's a healthy thing for growth.
Joon Park (20:12):
Especially like moving back from LA, you know, in the short six months I spent in LA, I kind of learned how to smoke weed there and learn how to just like chill out and not be so anxious about my career. I think, especially as someone who was born in a Korean immigrant household where our output and how well we did literally determine our worth.
Like, it's just always been kind of a personality trait for me that like, I have to be like on a million different things and onto the next one on, so on and so forth and no way I really learned to slow down. And of course I was kind of interrupted briefly when I had to come back to New York and like suddenly it was like, Oh my God, there's an event after work. I need to go to this, this and that.
And I don't know, I am someone who kind of looks to the universe for signs. I don't think it's random that after missing the more kind of laid back parts of Los Angeles and like the culture that really celebrates people beyond their careers and their output that like, we're kind of forced into that realm because of COVID and the fact that life is never going to be the same as we know it.
Derek Horn (21:24):
Right. Right. And I think that like earlier on in quarantine, there were a number of posts on LinkedIn from these professional influencers that are like, Oh, you're wasting your time if you're not doing X, Y, Z right now. And it's like, hold on, like we're facing this crisis that none of us have ever seen in our lifetimes. There's there's so much unpredictability in the world. I think if there's ever a time that we're allowed to kind of stop and just be be forgiving with ourselves, it's really now.
So I think that's one of the reasons why I wanted to start this podcast. I think that I chose people that are doing cool things to speak with. One of the things that I want to highlight is that dynamic people behind it and how, especially on LinkedIn and kind of like any other professional media, you often get that kind of veneer of career accomplishments and perfection and this and that. And I think that it's really just important to highlight the humanity, challenges and struggles that are going on behind the scenes. Cause I think that we're all human and that's what we're all trying to figure this out together.
Joon Park (22:37):
And to that, I personally really detest these LinkedIn influencers. I just think it really sets a very dangerous precedent for our youth specifically because it, once again, reinforces the idea that like your worth is based on what you contribute to our economy and we know that that's not true. And like anytime I hear young people describe themselves as hardworking over like any other adjective, a part of me gets really sad because hardworking for who? Like, are you servicing yourself? Or are you servicing your company? And so totally with you about like the hustle culture and like how pervasive and like dangerous it is for specifically young people.
Derek Horn (23:25):
Yeah. And I think there's a lot of kind of adjectives for those words that I think people use to dress it up and make it seem like it's this personal achievement. And like, yeah, I definitely I've had moments where I've worked really hard on something and you step back and you're like, wow, I'm proud of what I did. But at the end of the day, it's like, it is important to think about who your output and your pursuits are really benefiting. And at what cost.
We touched on it earlier, but what types of mental health challenges have you faced during the COVID era and how do you cope with them?
Joon Park (24:02):
Yeah, I've been living with depression for like seven years now? So it's obviously not a stranger to me. In fact I'm actually really happy that I kind of was challenged with depression at such a young age just because I think it really equipped me with like a toolkit for how to respond when moments of crises arise.
And quite honestly, you know, as depressed as I can get recently, like in, you know, today I'm just reminded of who I was when I was at like the peak of my depression also kind of juggling like suicidal ideation and all that and seeing how beautifully my life turned out to be when I least expected it. And so while uncertainty is like really scary for me, it also like just studying my past and just like knowing that there were all these doors that kind of opened out of nowhere that like I would have never foreseen just like kind of ingesting that pattern recognition and having faith that like, yes, this current moment is incredibly challenging, but like, I don't know what the hell life has to offer tomorrow next week, a month after that is actually a very kind of filling ray of hope for me that, like, I actually personally find a lot of like joy and resonance from like, knowing that like, I don't know what tomorrow is going to look like.
And while today sucks, like I'll just go to sleep, wake up and who knows what tomorrow is going to look like.
Derek Horn (25:43):
Yeah. I mean, that sounds really simple, but I think that that really is a great approach to have. And I know I think that it's easier said than done, especially if you are dealing with depression or anxiety, but I think I'm glad that you've kind of built that toolkit for yourself to be able to view the world through that lens. Cause it, it can be brutal sometimes.
Joon Park (26:09):
Thank you.
Derek Horn (26:09):
So I'm gonna move on and have a chat about allyship and advocacy. And I think just to kick it off, what does allyship mean to you? In any way, shape or form?
Joon Park (26:24):
I think ultimately allyship can be like summed up as deference. So like I think a lot of people, and this might be a hot take, but I think a lot of people treat allyship as like a really active thing. And like, you have to proactively be doing things on behalf of other communities, but like sometimes like those actions misaligned with like what the community actually needs.
And so deference can also manifest as you just listening, you shutting the fuck up. But I think we're, we miss a lot more of that where people are really eager to kind of wave, you know, the status signaling or virtue signaling flag, but like ultimately allyship means like creating space for those who need it. And I think summed in a word deference would be like the most packageable way.
Derek Horn (27:15):
That's something I've had an evolving journey with. And I think that especially this year and the past couple of years, I've really come to realize that it is not always that virtue signaling and it is more of a subtle experience.
Joon Park (27:34):
Yeah. And, and to that, like, as you know, the times changed, so do the needs of people. So like, whereas in the past, like people were more concerned about like, you know, people have positions of power having harder conversations with their family members at home. Like now, like the need state of like the people on the ground is that they need monetary support and financial assistance. And so like the, like the definition of allyship is always changing. And I think that's why it is kind of critical that we defer to the people who need to be listened to as opposed to like making our own claims about like, what is appropriate and what is necessary,
Derek Horn (28:14):
You've appeared in national publications like Seventeen, Teen Vogue and the Huffington post. What's it like having that type of visibility, especially for a younger generation?
Joon Park (28:22):
Yeah. You know, I'm just a small town kid from Bergen County, NewJersey, and I was really scared growing up, watching all these like media stories of like these people labeled as like nobodies, who also happened to be trans being murdered in really excessive ways. And for me, like I internalized that as I needed to protect myself either by being really good at school being really popular or both. And like that has just been kind of the way I viewed life. Is that like to ultimately, or to gain the ultimate level of protection, like I just had to be like a name that people knew for some reason. Like I just thought that would grant me security.
And so at a very young age, when I was still in college, you k now, I just kind of circuitously happened to stumble upon some people who I knew at Seventeen magazine, Huffington post. And like at the time it sounded really sexy for me to like appear in all these publications and like get my name out because like, according to my experience, like the best way to just secure myself as a trans person was just to be sexy, be someone that people looked up to all that bullshit.
But as I continue to age and mature, I'm realizing that privacy is actually a very sexy thing that I want a little more of. And in fact the more and more I appear in like these sexy publications, I start to feel a little detached from where the communities that I like came from and like the people like the villages that built me up. And so, you know, I think I'm kind of less interested in these sexy names today just because it doesn't benefit me.
And in fact, I think there are plenty of other trans young people who are doing incredibly exciting work that needs to be spotlighted instead. But of course, like I also can't ignore that there are habits that I need to rectify that are also didn't come in a vacuum. And there's a reason why I continue to hold onto using awards and honors and like all these credentials to spruce myself up as like a defense mechanism. But you know, now that I'm a little more into my career, I'm feeling less of that and more assessing this is actually going to be beneficial and is this the right way to like amplify the causes that I'm interested in? And they're like, if it's not like I am happy to decline potential involvements.
Derek Horn (31:04):
Nice. Yeah, I think there definitely is a lot of power in saying no to things.
Joon Park (31:11):
That said, you know, I also think it's like very easy for me to like flagellate and like kind of dim down like my accomplishments.
One of like the biggest fruits of my labor (labor used very loosely, I don't really do much), has just been like how, and this might be a pompous thing to say, but I can palpably feel when I have touched the lives of others simply by existing as my unapologetic self.
And even in my stint at Boston college, which was a Jesuit college you know, I entered one of very few visible, like visibly queer people on campus. And within my four years there just saw like a completely different demographic than the one I entered within. And yeah, there's a lot of cultural factors at play, but I also like to think that my act of embracing life so unapologetically also gives permission for other students the same and it gives me immense joy to see young people who are also stepping into their next chapters in life with such commitment to being their authentic selves.
And of course we obviously go way back because we volunteer for an organization called Out for Undergrad, which caters to young LGBTQ+ students. But even within that space, you know, I entered it in 2016 already thinking it was so queer and year over year, just seeing how much more magical and excellent the students get has just been such a moment of joy that continues to remind me why the work I did wasn't for nothing.
Derek Horn (32:48):
Yeah. I really love Out for Undergrad. For one reason, it has introduced me to many incredible people, including yourself.
Joon Park (32:57):
Aww, you too!
Derek Horn (32:57):
But yeah, that's one of the reasons I've come back to volunteer for the past five or so years is it really is special to meet and interact with so many young queer students. And it really is rewarding to see students see a small part of themselves in me and how that can inspire them to go be a better, more authentic version of themselves.
Joon Park (33:28):
And while we're on this, like I also don't want to diminish the value that the students then bring to us. So I already distinctly remember being like in undergrad, like as a junior, as a senior, going to all these seminars with like people who are maybe four or five years into their careers, still talking about the importance of diversity and inclusion at the workplace. And just like always thinking like, Oh, this is so stale. Like, like this is such a, you know, 101 conversation.
And I just find that being with such young people who continue to challenge me and hold me accountable and remind me that I am like gradually getting more and more removed from like the young people who I so actively champion for in the past. Like that is also such a great value that I think young talent distinctly has to offer to us. And that is often a little too ignored.
Derek Horn (34:20):
Yeah. I totally agree. I know that a lot of the programs and structures that we've had at O4U and even what I've gleaned through the interactions with students, I've personally been able to take and implement in my own workplace, or at least help influence some of the conversations we're having there.
So it really has been one of the joys of my post grad life is be able to maintain these relationships with young people and learn from them. So I know you've been involved with other organizations, including,O4U, but also GLAAD and ADCOLOR. What o you think the role of organizations like those are and pushing for progress?
Joon Park (35:02):
Yeah. number one, let me just list some of the organizations that have been incredibly pivotal to me, the first thing, NLGJA , which is The National Association of LGBTQ Journalists, there's a fellowship that they run that essentially recruits like 12, like aspiring journalists every year. And so that was like the first taste that I got, that I am allowed to bring my queerness to work or to consider my queerness as an active role in my professional life also, because at the time, I always thought like queerness was something I had to silo out and couldn't really present to the professional world. And so that experience completely changed my view on that.
Then there's also, O4U, which is an incredible conference that caters to students who are interested in business, marketing, tech and engineering.
And then there's also MAIP, which is specifically for students of color who are interested in entering advertising
And then lastly ADCOLOR, which is for people maybe two or three years into the industry already who are up and coming thought leaders within the advertising space, specifically around DEI.
And as I continue to interrogate what I've really taken away from all these different involvements, the first was that as a trans person, I had to be acutely aware of like geographically where I would reside, just because like I personally could not really see myself in Wyoming or like, I don't know. I don't know. Like, I don't know, that's how far out I am, but like that said, I also did not really want to like limit myself to like the typical cities. And so, a lot of my involvement in these organizations was that I knew that they would fly me out to some city and I would get like an opportunity to explore that said city.
And so there was that thing where from all these different experiences, I was able to like, cancel out Philadelphia, Miami, like, you know, just, I think it's really important to acknowledge like what you don't like. And so there's that aspect. The more, I think critical aspect is that you also develop families within these networks.
And personally for me, like ADCOLOR has been such an important backbone to what I do, because any time questions arise about, you know, negotiating salaries or, you know, is this agency going to be a safe place for me to work or I don't like where, how I'm trying to go back to grad school. Anyone have any tips for that? There are people who like, when you have 40 people pulled in like one group setting, like you are bound to have people who will be able to offer advice.
And especially as the youngest person within my Futures class who's looked up to like, all my colleagues were a little more advanced in their careers. I'm kind of like the little sibling who gets to take all the advice and like benefit from that. And it's just been really nice having a place to talk shit. Cause you know, that's also really important. I don't think we do enough of that within our industry. And also just to benchmark like I know my worth and it's nice to see that like there are other people who are like championing for their own worth. And like collectively we are making an industry a better place because all of us are agreeing to not settle for stuff that, you know, belittles us. And so, yeah, it's just been really nice just being involved in all these organizations that in a way presents us as a unified front that the industry has to confront.
Derek Horn (38:37):
Yeah. Before I started volunteering with Out for Undergrad or O4U, I had this idea of networking as this very kind of icky, transactional thing that you do or you have to do in order to get opportunities. But I think one of the things that, especially networking within the LGBTQ+ space was that it is really about relationship building and kind of looking out for each other, like you were saying. And I think help helping other people get jobs or if you see an opening come up and somebody you know is a good fit, and you're able to refer them or recommend them or anything like that. So I think it's that type of networking, that's something I've found really rewarding and enjoyable.
Joon Park (39:28):
And I really want to double down on that. Obviously, because we work with so many young people through Out for Undergrad, I think a very popular misconception is that networking is only successful when you network with peers or people above you. And so oftentimes there's a lot of pressure for our students to only, and exclusively talk to people who are already at their companies on VPs, et cetera, et cetera, hot take. But I personally feel that mentors will find you, but like what you cannot ignore is the people who are you were coming up with.
And so, you know, even across like all my different internship experiences, like there have been people who super amazed me where I'm like, Oh my God, if I got an opportunity to work with you again, like I would so do that. And they're all also, I've been people who I'm like, yo, like if you've ever tried to come to a company that I'm at, like that will not happen because I saw your work ethic and I saw how you only bound most of the people above you. And like, you will just not be in this setting.
I think people just need to be cognizant and take a much more like communal community oriented approach to the ways that they network and build relationships.
Derek Horn (40:34):
Totally. I think it really is, at the end of the day, it is a small world…
Joon Park (40:41):
It is SUCH a small world
Derek Horn (40:42):
…especially early on in your career, you never, you have no idea who's going to come back years down the line and potentially be a big player in your, your own career or whatever. So I think, I think it's really important to value those relationships, avoid burning bridges, unless you absolutely have to, and just kind of be open to, to meeting new people and meeting them where they're at and having that human connection.
I know that we touched on this a bit earlier as well, but I know conversations around racial justice have dominated the nation's attention this summer. How do you see yourself and your industry's place in that conversation and fight?
Joon Park (41:37):
Yeah. You know, back to the point about deference. Like if you ask me this question, like four years ago, three, even two years ago, like I would've been like, Oh, I'll be at the front lines and I'll like take on this work so that my colleagues, my specifically Black and Brown colleagues don't have to, but especially just watching how many people are eager to do that, make hiccups and then just like do fuck shit that ends up, you know, net, net being worse for the community.
I've really embraced taking a much more kind of listening type role. And also what I'm more concerned about is like the day to day lives of my Black and Brown colleagues. So like, yes, we can think about change in the longterm, but I also think we need to think about like what our colleagues are going through in every day.
And so, for example especially when the recent or the [killing] of George Floyd happened, I knew that I had a lot of Black colleagues who like mentally were not able to work that day. And so like little things like offering to like shoulder their work and like letting them take a backseat and just being more cautious of like how their Tuesdays might be is just my personal approach to the conversation surrounding racial justice right now.
And I think the other part is that I was used to thinking that for me to really make impact in the industry, I just had to accrue all this capital, whether it be social or financial or like geographic capital and just like building enough of a name for myself to then finally activate it against it. But then I was like, I don't want to be fucking 35 and like waste like 10 years when like literally our times call for so much urgency and demand that like all of us be more active in the sense that like, you know, we're not looking to some future, but like more concerned with like, you know, what, what is smart going to look like? That I've also been really reassessing, you know, like what is the point of me, like building this capital for who like and so just thinking more tactically about how I could support my Black and Brown colleagues on the day to day, as opposed to like, dreaming about some like distant future has been my latest shift in mindset.
Derek Horn (44:08):
Right. Yeah. I actually totally agree with that. And I definitely have been also trying to take that mindset of listening and learning and undoing a lot of things I've kind of been hardwired to do in a white-dominated culture. But also I think, like you said, I think it is easy to kind of want to follow the inclination to wait until you amassed all knowledge or all the knowhow or whatever, to kind of then wave your wand and flex your muscle, however you can.
But I think that I've learned that I think it's better to just kind of try and make change or have influence with what you have in the moment. And if you mess up, you just try and do better next time. Cause otherwise it's like, if everybody's waiting for this distant day in the future that may or may not even come, then we're not going to get anywhere.
Joon Park (45:03):
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
Derek Horn (45:05):
So wrapping things up. Is there anything that you've discovered this year about yourself or your kind of way of working, you want to have sustain for the long haul?
Joon Park (45:18):
Yeah. I was touching upon this earlier, but I'd really like to figure out who I am when I'm divorced from my career and my professional life.
Truth be told I've never dated anyone. A lot of these questions arose, because obviously during the pandemic, when you're in like awkward zoom calls, like the question to like kind of break the ice would be like, Oh, like what do you do for fun? Or like, what do you do in your free time? And like I realized, I didn't have fucking answer aside from just working. And so like, it was just so crazy to me, like how much of my life has revolved around like being a person of like capitalist output.
So I really want to figure out what Joon is beyond sparks & honey beyond not color beyond all these like decorations and like, am I a family person? Am I, I don't know. Yeah. Something, something along those lines it's mad corny, but that's where I'm at.
Derek Horn (46:17):
No, it's not corny at all! It's life!
I know it’s difficult when there's so much else going on, it can be hard to tune it out, but I think it is an opportunity to kind of reset and realign yourself to what's important to you or even discover what's important to you, like you were saying.
And then this is like the question that I'm hoping to use to close out every episode, but I know that it feels like it may not be right now, but one day hopefully this period will be behind us. When you imagine that day, what, what are you hopeful for?
Joon Park (47:00):
I am hopeful for a day where all of us are less stressed out because of our jobs and pay more attention to our neighbors, our friends, our communities around us. Yeah, that's my bottom line. I hope that all this stress has really helped people really interrogate their relationship with work and hopefully encourage people to understand that there's more to life than your jobs. And its ironic that I say this in a somewhat professional podcast context, but that's my aspiration.
Derek Horn (47:36):
I love that. I mean, that really is the heart of what I'm trying to interrogate here. So that's great.
So thank you for sharing your time with me and our listeners. If folks want to find you, where can they find you online? And is there anything that you'd like to plug?
Joon Park (47:54):
You can find me on Instagram at @joonyoungpark And that's it.
Derek Horn (48:04):
Awesome. Well, thank you. I'll talk to you soon. Thank you.