Derek Horn
Welcome to a very special Season 1 finale episode of In These Uncertain Times, I’m your host and today’s guest, Derek Horn. If you remember back in the premiere episode featuring Katie Martell, she made an offer to interview me. Well, that’s exactly what we did.
Katie and I recorded this episode before the Delta variant reared its head, so any references to a fun-filled summer have aged poorly in the time since. Please do whatever you can to keep yourselves, families, and communities safe, get vaccinated if you’re eligible and have yet to do so, and consider getting back into the habit of wearing a mask again regardless of your vaccination status, even if you are not mandated by your local government.
Before we get into the episode, I just want to give a heartfelt thank you to each of the season 1 guests for their time and for building this awesome project with me and also my friends, family, and partner Joey for their support along the way.
Thank you and enjoy the episode!
Katie Martell
Welcome everyone to a very special episode of In These Uncertain Times. I am your very special guest host today Katie Martell. And because I am your host, that means our very special guest today is the one and only Derek J. Horn, creator of the In These Uncertain Times podcast senior designer at Beardwoo&Co, and now Florida man. Hi, Derek.
Derek Horn
Hi Katie, how are you doing?
Katie Martell
I am so good. Thank you for the opportunity to hijack your show and interview you I think About time that you're in the spotlight.
Derek Horn
Thank you. Yeah, I know that we discussed it at the end of your episode, which is the very first episode of the show. So I wanted to hold you to that. And here we are.
Katie Martell
I'm a man of my words here. But I was such an honor to be your first guest. I mean, it was one of those projects. You know, we all had kind of had these, like quarantine, hobbies and projects. And I thought yours is very productive. very ambitious, and how many episodes later? How many have you done?
Derek Horn
Thank you. I think by the time this comes out, it'll be 20.
Katie Martell
I love it.
Derek Horn
Yeah, I always kind of had done at work thinking, Okay, I'll see how far I get, um, and see, kind of feel it out as I go. I think her I think that, definitely. 20 is a number that I'm proud of. And also, I think I'm kind of ready to book on this set of interviews. I think that there definitely is potential to continue in the future potentially later this year is we're going a little bit back to some semblance of normalcy, actually how people are transitioning, but I think for this, it is just at this point, it's feeling like a natural kind of endpoint for this part of the journey. And I'm definitely really proud of all the conversations I've had and really great people that have been highlighted. So I'm overall really, really happy.
Katie Martell
I'm happy that you're happy. But I'm bet you're glad it's over. Podcasting is not a small amount of work. It is a lot of work, not only getting the guys but designing. You're a very thoughtful host, you have questions, you have very thoughtful responses. I mean, you do podcasting well, which means you put a lot into it. So congrats on reaching this milestone. And kudos for putting yourself in the spotlight. This is almost as hosting, right?
Derek Horn
Yeah. A little bit a little bit. Yeah, I think that there's been opportunities where I don't know, I've had more kind of conversational parts of the interviews with guests, but always try to keep it strictly on them for the most part. So I definitely am excited to kind of be in the hot seat myself. And just share a little bit about my experience and thoughts that I've been having over the past year or so.
Katie Martell
I love this because the In These Uncertain Times podcast, we're now probably in more uncertain times as we enter, you know, the real world again. So I don't think the topic is ever going to be irrelevant. But I do want to clarify for listeners that can't see us right now that we are both wearing this fantastic leopard, you know, aesthetic. We both have this, like blond hair and leopard print shirt happening. So I think we are both on the same page. The only certainty in my life is knowing that you are going to show up looking fabulous. So I feel rounded, I feel ready. But can we jump right into the first question that you always ask your guests?
Derek Horn
Let's do it.
Katie Martell
Can you Derek J. Horn, introduce yourself to guests in your own words?
Derek Horn
All right. Well, I think that if you've been listening to this podcast, and probably not a stranger to you, but in an effort to stick to the format, I am Derek Horn, I am a designer, podcast creator and host and sometimes writer that is currently in the process of moving from New York City, to Orlando, Florida. I am partner to my fiance Joey and dog dad to Luna, who I think is whining in her crate behind me. So forgive me if you hear her. I've been a designer at Beardwood&Co. for six years since I graduated from Syracuse University in 2015. And I would say the common thread that unites everything I do is a sense of empathy and trying to push beyond the surface level narratives and boxes that we put our lives and each other into, to try and see that inherent beauty and potential that lies within.
Katie Martell
I love that, I love that and I think you live that everyday. But you also amplify that which is its own special blend of contribution to this world. You know, what's that phrase? Labels, boxes, they're all different soup cans, not people, you know, and I think you live outside of the boxes in many ways. And I think that's a healthy way of navigating this world because we're all multifaceted, multi-dimensional beings. We don't deserve boxes.
Derek Horn
Totally.
Katie Martell
One box we've been in though, has been this ridiculous isolation process. I think many of us have looked inward the past. What is it now? 18 months, 12 months. It's it's been it's been long enough where it's felt like no time at all. And yet 10 years all at once. It's been a really remarkable period. Tell me about now that we're kind of leaving now that we're kind of coming out of this. How you had to adapt, you know, your kind of work life, personal life. What's going on for you and COVID-19?
Derek Horn
Yeah, so, at the start of the pandemic, I was obviously working at Beardwood in New York City, I'll always remember that day, March 13, was the first day we did like a trial work from home thing, actually a dentist appointment that afternoon. And I remember, I was like the only one in the office when I went for it. I'm just like, seeing things on the news. And just like, I don't know, this weird sense of foreboding. It was before, like, they had officially really closed down the city, which came like within a matter of days. Um, but yeah, by the end of that weekend, we were fully working from home, it wasn't just a trial anymore, it was kind of, we had hit the case numbers in the city.
And I will always remember especially that first month living in this city. Thankfully, both Joey and I have remained employed. And we were able to work from home for over a year. And so it was, we were both from home, and it was just very eerie, and just kind of sitting, working from home and just hearing a constant stream of sirens outside of our apartment, and even just going to the grocery stores. I think that's one of the most beautiful things I think I've seen for the past year is just kind of in New York, the community, this kind of sense of camaraderie, and people truly looking out for each other. I mean, you have assholes that won't wear their mask in the store here and there. But for the most part, like everybody did, um, even just seeing all the mutual aid funds pop up and just community on pantries and things like that it was really beautiful to see New Yorkers come together.
So I do feel bad at this point that we're now moving to Florida, I don't I hate that we’re potentially contributing to this fleeing of New York narrative that some people are painting, and the numbers probably do reflect. But this is something we had just for family reasons been thinking about for a little bit. And just kind of, I think, we were getting really tight. Between the two of us and our puppy and our one-bedroom apartment in New York, we're looking forward to have more space and a place to call our home and, and have the room to grow for the years to come.
But, another thing too, that the past year is kind of a setback for us as we were originally planning to get married in October 2020. That was kind of a major bummer that I think for the first three months, kind of like, Okay, are we going, are we gonna be able to do it or is this gonna be over by then? And just like as it went on? It's like, no, this isn't gonna happen, we decided to just indefinitely postpone it, until we can do it the way we want to.
The venue here in Florida was ready to have us. They're like, Oh, your number of people is within half capacity. So we can do it. But it was like, that's one of the absolute last things in this world that we wanted to do was put all of our most loved friends and family in one place in the middle of a pandemic. And yeah, I just don't want that sense of anxiety on my wedding day. But overall, it's been I've been really grateful to keep our job, keep our apartment, have the flexibility to make this move.
And yeah, and then the podcast itself came about in the fall of last year, I had reached my five-year anniversary with Beardwood&Co. Last summer. And one of the great perks of working there is it new five-year mark, you get to take a month sabbatical to really do whatever you want with was originally planning on using that for the wedding. However, obviously, that didn't happen but still wanted to take this month and try something new. And I thought of the podcast as a way, it's something to do in that month.
Back in 2019, I think I had wrote this article called In Praise of the Undesigned World. It was on the Dieline and I was invited to be a guest on Human Centered Design podcast to discuss it and I was like, wait, you want me to go on your podcast? like little old me? And I was definitely like worried or and kind of intimidated and anxious to do it. But I took the leap and I did it despite my nerves, and it went really great. And I loved that. And I had thought, you know, I could see myself doing a podcast one day. But at that time, I didn't really have a great big idea for a show. And the last thing I thought the world needed was just another mediocre podcast from a white guy. As I say that I tell people that all the time. So 2020 rolls around, and I had my sabbatical. And I don't even remember which came first. But I remember this moment where I was thinking to myself, you know, I know a lot of really cool people that are doing really cool things, despite the circumstances were in. It could be really great to highlight all these people I know from different corners of my life and experiences and stuff. And also just kind of serve as a time capsule of this era that we're living in, I think it'll be really awesome to look back on this and 5,10 or more years, and just remember, the really human experience that was this year, from the mundane to the monumental to everything in between, because I even if you weren't like the most directly hit by the pandemic, it really has affected every single person's lives.
And I also, I don't know, I also took it as this opportunity to combat some of the toxic things I think you're seeing at the beginning of the pandemic, there, especially the first couple of weeks, I think it especially at that point when it was like, people were under the impression that this would only be a couple of weeks, people were like “oh, if you don't come out of here with like skills, or a new hustle or this and that, you didn't last time you lacked discipline.” And I just thought that that was such bullshit, like, like props to people that have taken on those things and started new ventures and stuff. But I think that it just is a very toxic mentality of this society that it's every spare moment you have, even ones that should be spent resting, to spend continuing to better yourself for expand like how this capitalistic mindset. So like I said, if that's what you want to do, that's your prerogative. Go for it. I totally support you. But I just don't like this when it becomes this blanket push to have people constantly hustling constantly grinding in the midst of a global pandemic, unlike anything we've seen before.
Katie Martell
Right, right. And it's really this, this sense of shaming others that's really at the core of it, it's like to live the way they're going to live.
Derek Horn
To SURVIVE.
Katie Martell
so so exactly right, this is something that affected the globe, our country, this these big, monolithic communities, right, in a way that we've never experienced and to have any of the answers or to claim you had any of the answers I always thought was suspect. You know, it's this is new. To your point with the title of this podcast was uncertain. It's still uncertain. The only certainty was the here the now and I think a lot of people were very uncomfortable with the now sudden forced focus on where you are now who you're with it. Did you find you know, working from home with your with your partner full time? Did you find that it made you stronger? Did you find that it helped your relationship? Maybe there were some roadblocks that you overcame? But tell me about that experience.
Derek Horn
Yeah. I think, I think we did end up stronger. I think that just pure hours. From a pure hours perspective. We never, we haven't for the entire course of our relationship. We're both working full time, we never really had these long, sustained periods being together. And granted, we're on in each of our rooms. But during the day, it was just really great. Even even just the lack of the commute. It's more time back in our day to spend with each other, hang out, whatever, lunchtime, have lunch together. Yeah, there were definitely points for drove each other nut and honestly still do. I think if you're in a relationship, and that doesn't happen. You say that doesn't happen, I think you're lying. Especially if you're just under the circumstances where you're literally trapped in one place with one person for so long. That's just inevitable.
But I think the key is just obviously, that mutual respect and desire to work through it and put the petty things behind you. That's I think, the most important part of having a healthy relationship.
Katie Martell
What's one petty thing you had to put behind you?
Derek Horn
It really just like household things like the dishes, the trash, both things that were needed to be taken care of more frequently when you were both home full time. But yeah, I mean, if that's if that's the worst of the problems we have, like I'm pretty happy.
Katie Martell
Right? Right. Do you remember the advice that my grandma gave me that I shared on our podcast episode? My grandmother's deathbed advice for marriage? Let a lot of things go. And I, you know, during the pandemic, you are faced with the truth of yourself of your environment and the person you're with. And I think you do have to take stock of what matters, you know, what's willing what you're willing to sacrifice and what you're not willing to sacrifice? Did you have a lot of friends who ended up divorced at the end of the pandemic?
Derek Horn
Not that I know of. And like, personally, thankfully, I think the friends that I do know that are in long-term relationships, I think have definitely weathered through it, and if I would imagine are in I think, in similar situations is us. But I totally understand how, if you're not in a relationship with a solid foundation going into this, then it's gonna crumble very quickly.
Katie Martell
It really did accelerate a lot of things. We always talk about how it accelerated digital transformation and all that. It accelerated divorce it, we had actually three or four different couples who ended up separating. And you know, the first one was a shock, the second one started to feel like a trend, but the third and the fourth, I thought, all right, they're onto something. Yes, you came out stronger, or you came out, understanding that the foundation was Rocky. So I'm excited for you. I hope that the eventual wedding is everything you dream, and I give you a lot of credit for not rushing to make it happen in your kind of perceived timeline. Many were stuck by that. And you're you're saying what matters to you is having the wedding of your dreams, which I hope is fabulous, cannot wait to see what it looks like. But also in keeping your friends and family safe. That speaks to just who you are in your values.
Derek Horn
Well, thank you. Yeah, it's like, I think, especially as we're moving and looking to buy a home, there's a chance that maybe we will do a courthouse wedding, just for the sake of like, the legal benefits of having a marriage. But we haven't gotten that far yet to plan that. But if we do, I definitely want to have a huge party at some point just to get everybody together. And I really think if there's one thing that people want after this past year is an excuse to get together and celebrate.
Katie Martell
The Summer of Love, I'm calling it my friend, it's gonna be a fantastic summer. But tell me what you're going to keep, you know, from this period of crazy change. I mean, I know that for me, I'm keeping a few different habits that I picked up, like getting my groceries delivered, getting my weed delivered, it was a safe thing to do. And now it was a damn convenient thing to do.
Derek Horn
Yeah, I think um, for me, I do work on a job that is demanding at points. And I definitely care about what I do. And I'm always gonna do what I can to get do my job to the best of my ability, get my things in on time. But for me, it's I think that showed me more even more than before, there's more to life than work. There's more to life than even side projects like this. It says more intangible moments of spending time of my partner or my puppy, my family, my friends that I think that I'm I mean, I've always been appreciative of, but just really understanding that at the end of my life, those are the things that I’m going to look back on. And really remember and appreciate. Versus extra hour, I could be writing an article or squeezing in another episode of the podcast, things like that. So that's something I am hoping to keep going forward and also something my family has been doing a couple of times a week is kind of weekly Facetimes which has been really, really great. Even though most of them are in Syracuse. I'm in New York and or was in New York and now Florida, so it's just a really great way to stay connected a long distance then yeah, just hoping that continues. Um, and yeah,
Katie Martell
What about self care? Is there anything that you did to kind of you know, take care of yourself during the pandemic that you'll keep like for me, honestly, the Peloton I know it's a bougie thing but oh my god the peloton was such a mental health buoy I relied on it on the days that I felt like I was in chaos and yeah, I lost weight which is great. But it was about the mental clarity and the mental just come that it gave me no i i will never stop that like 15, 20 minute thing because I know it helps be the my best now.
Derek Horn
Yeah, yeah. I it's funny. We were actually just talking about getting a Peloton when we move and have the space for one so I look forward to that. But one of the great things I think that has been great for my mental health the past year is our apartment building is not too far from Central Park. So being able to walk our puppy Luna every day, getting that mental clarity and stuff, just for being with nature and exercise, getting the blood pumping and time with her was just really great for me and I really wellness. That that our little corner of the park when we move.
But I'm honest, it really was I really did struggle at some points the pandemic, I, from a very young age, I had obsessive compulsive disorder, to the point where my parents were like, legitimately worried if I were to have a normal life or not, I was like washing my hands every five minutes, things like that. But thankfully, went through therapy at a young age was able to get some coping mechanisms for that. And thankfully, I was not at that level during this experience. But ever since my childhood, I've had bouts with anxiety, depression, that come and go in waves. I'm in one this year, this past year that is really shed a new light on is when I'm having bouts of anxiety or depression, I would always try and justify it like, “Oh, I'm having a bad day. But I have my job, I am housed, I am this, I am that” and kind of putting myself on this spectrum, which I think kind of robbed myself of processing what I was actually feeling. And I think that after I caught myself doing that, repeatedly realizing that that's not healthy. I think that that I think and I think many other people have this tendency to do that, where it's like, “oh, I could be far worse off, I shouldn't be complaining.” And people might even do that to each other as well. But I think it's the most one of most healthy things you can do is give yourself the space to feel what you're feeling and find things that help make you feel good.
Another thing too, that I really struggled with is I've to be completely candid, I've put on a bit of weight during the pandemic. I think it started out in the beginning, when we were kind of almost panic buying or buying things to hunker down with, indulging in some less than healthy food is kind of like a treat for what was thought to be a short period of time. But it's kind of weeks went on I kind of just built these unhealthy habits. But over the past I think probably since the beginning of the year, I've been trying to break out of that a little bit, trying to get healthier, exercise more, lose that weight, but also just feel good. I was really just not feeling good physically. And I'm just ready to break out of that and start becoming active again. Hence the hence the peloton and hopefully taking advantage of other outdoor activities once we're settled in Florida here.
Katie Martell
You know my wife is a personal trainer and she always says that abs are made in the kitchen. I have nothing close to ABS but the eating the honestly the food has been for me what allowed me to lose weight. I don't care how I look, you know, it's one of those things that people comment on it now and like, “Oh, you look great.” I'm like, okay, but what were you saying about me before? I looked great
It's about how you feel. And I think eating healthier eating just more foods that you cook yourself, for me was the best was the best thing for like my overall health. And yeah, weight is a part of it. But my God, everyone put on weight during COVID it's one of those things that we all all did, and now was wanting hot girls summer and I'm like, how about just healthy, you know, happy are you?
Derek Horn
You survived. Celebrate that! I know that people make jokes and names about “the COVID-19” putting on the way but it's like, we just went through something unlike anything that we've been through and like essentially, and hopefully won't, anytime else in our lifetimes. Like I just said, like we survived, we made it through that is enough reason for celebration. If you fell off the wagon with your health goals, or made some not great choices, like there's time to get back on habits you want to keep there's time to get healthier. Especially if we've been surrounded by so much grief and loss and whatever it's like, we're here like we're able to be together again, for the most part. Like just enjoy that. Like, if you don't have a six pack to flaunt on the beach this summer. Who the hell cares?
I mean, it affects I think everybody in different ways obviously affects women, all the things in the media, unrealistic body standards, but something in the gay community as well. I think that I've noticed the past especially a few years on Instagram and stuff. Just kind of these ideal body types and stuff are just really flaunted and celebrated. And there's a lot of this pressure to really adhere to it in order to fit in. Especially the past year we've been at home, we've had more time to scroll and see those things online. And depending on where people are at, personally with their own goals and motivation and stuff, they might not be reaching that and it's like, I think I want to see more assurance that that's okay. You're okay as you are, as long as you are feeling healthy. You are feeling good about yourself. That is what's most important. It doesn't matter what, how you fall on this spectrum of body standards.
Katie Martell
Absolutely. Be kind to yourself. That's the mantra, you know, I think negative self-thoughts are natural. But during the pandemic, they were amplified, because guess what, we lived in our heads the whole time. And we were fed this steady diet to your point of doomscrolling and body-shaming scrolling. And it really does combine to now create this environment where everybody is kind of in the same boat of feeling inadequate. What a waste of our very limited time on this Earth to feel inadequate for even a second. We are this like incredible accident. There will be never another Derek Horn and to have a moment of self-doubt. Man, that's a waste of the cosmos, my friend. That's how I see it. It's a waste of the cosmos. And you look fabulous in this shirt. So really, who cares?
Derek Horn
Thank you.
Katie Martell
I’m telling you I wish I wish everyone could see you right now because it's like hairs on point. It is like blonde for the gods. Oh, I'm obsessed. And I have my standard turtleneck on, my leopard print turtleneck. It's my COVID uniform.
Derek Horn
I'll be sure to take a screenshot of us to post along with episode artwork so people can get the full audio-visual experience.
Katie Martell
No filter, though we're going to go complete around we're not going to promote unrealistic body standards.
Derek Horn
Totally.
Katie Martell
Well, we've got we've touched on a little it is that you think more people should be paying attention to but tell me what else you've been thinking about what what's going on in the world that you think needs a little more spotlight or that you at least want people to think about?
Derek Horn
Yeah, yeah. It’s something I've been thinking about a lot. The past I think most of 2021. Um, I think that since Trump has left office, I think the political temperature has cooled a little bit. The issues are still there. There's still crises in the world, that's not going to change really, no matter who the President is. But it's just kind of after the past four or five years of the Trump era. It just I think is really shown how divided we truly are, as a nation, as a country, as communities. And I think that, I don't want to be forgiving people for like people that have done actual harm and actual wrongdoing, and things of that nature. And I don't have the answer to this. But I have been thinking about what are ways we can mend our political divide and kind of cultural divide. Just because I think that there is a relatively small handful of people in power and even in control of the media that are just far better served by keeping us divided and keeping us angry, and coming for each other's throats. And it really is truly so disgusting, how things like masking and social distancing, and just pure, like steps to mitigate the pandemic have been amplified into these huge political wedge issues. And unlike I think any other country really, it's really wild, how they've just kind of become these hot button things.
But I really am just hopeful that we can start to see each other's common humanity again. And I know that there are I'm missing that again. Well, I've had some choice words about Trump and his enablers and his supporters and whatever, I've never been one of those people that has like, unfriend me if you support him, or whatever. If that's what you need to do to protect your mental health, protect your wellbeing, please go for it. But I've always been in the mindset of hey, if I'm sharing something that helps you move your opinion, helps bring you a little bit closer to what I'm seeing, with what I'm posting or speaking about, whatever. I see that as a net positive otherwise I think that if we're continuing to whittle down our social media bubbles to be more in line with what our views are, if we're only seeing 90 to 100%, of what our worldview is, and kind of interested, equally, posting things to that audience, I think that that just continues us down this really dangerous road of being so insular and divided from each other. And it also just gets to this point where you're really just preaching to the choir when you're sharing or posting things. And if these people agree with you, most of the time, it really just starts to look more and more like this, this virtual signaling, it's like, why are you posting in the first place? Are you doing it to share information? Are you doing it to change people's opinions? Are you doing it to keep up the perception that you are on top of these things? That you care, you're paying attention, what have you, but I think that that that could be its own other discussions altogether.
And I mean, I know that you, you, yourself, have been looking at this in a way with kind of, from a corporate perspective, and kind of woke-washing and things like that. But I really do think that, I don't know, I like I said, I don't have the answers to this. But I'm just really hopeful that we can find ways to have actual, meaningful, tangible conversation. Start to see each other for human beings and understand that nobody exists in a vacuum and like they've mostly come to their opinions, because of one reason or another, be it circumstance or just simply the narrative that we're seeing in the media. And I just, I just really want to break that and help us see the common threads in our humanity because I really do think that more unites us that there is more that unites us than divides us.
Katie Martell
We have so much more in common than we do, that divides us. It is it is what's lost in the kind of click-driven, traffic-driven online media, I'm talking social networks, as well as ad-supported news sites. It's lost because the motivation is not to show a nuanced, balanced perspective, it's to generate clicks, attention and outrage that you get shares. I mean, the whole monetization of our online world drives really dangerous habits. And I do think you're right to point, it's okay not to have the answers because of the fact that we're talking about it is step one, yeah. If we're all aware of the ways in which we are manipulated by the media, and I'm not saying like the media as an enemy, but the media, the literal platforms that guide our information consumption these days, we become more literate consumers of that info. And I think the first step is to do exactly what you're doing, which is to admit to yourself that we all kind of have a bubble, that we all live in that bubble, and that we don't have to participate in that outrage economy, that we can choose to try to reconnect to the things that we have in common.
Derek Horn
Totally. And I'm not gonna pretend that I'm not guilty of it myself. I believe me every time that Trump and his cronies have done some bullshit thing I've been one of one of the first people to post and be like, “what the hell is this” on Facebook or whatever and hopes it'll reach some family member or random person from high school that is kind of blindly supporting him. So yeah, I think that I'm actually I didn't know I was gonna complete that thought but…
Katie Martell
You put out the the the retweet or the post in the ether, and you hope someone will see it use hope that Yeah, new perspective will change their mind. I think people don't change their mind unless they want to, unless, yeah, do it.
Derek Horn
And unless those people are physically engaging with it, liking or commenting or whatever, there is really no way of knowing that they're even their eyeballs or even getting on it. Or if it's moving the needle on anyway, so it almost feels like this. This trap your mind isn't like oh, I hope they're seeing it, like you really have no way of knowing if it's working or not, but you just kind of keep doing it and hope will move somebody an inch.
Katie Martell
What I've seen and I've experienced this with my own father, who is very much fallen into the Fox News bubble, and he's very much of the boomer age that you know, they are targeting. We grew up very poor, you know, he's a white you know, people say white privilege and he feels offended by that he didn't have a shred of privilege in his life, in his perspective. So I’ve been over the course of the pandemic increasingly worried about his kind of information consumption, and it came to a head actually, recently and we kind of have this moment of cathartic release, you could call it I was a little bit of emotional outbursts. But what we got to this point was that we realized kind of the best way to bridge the gap is, is to have a direct conversation with the people that you know, matter to you and that will somewhat listen to you. No dad's gonna listen to their daughter, you know fully about politics. But I think those conversations are hard. And I think those hard conversations are what's going to get us out of the bubbles, because we can't rely on the platforms to even get that content in front of the people, we wanted to see, we've almost got to be direct at the not at the expense of our mental health and our you know, energy levels, but that those direct conversations can start to change minds. And I think the more we have the dialogue open with people that we think are in these bubbles, I mean, the more that's how these things happen, these connections that create empathy, and hopefully start to change my life. I hope, I hope that you can reconnect with some of these folks that where it makes sense to on a very one-to-one basis.
Derek Horn
Yeah, me too. And I think so much of these conversations, need to be moving beyond the buzzwords that people are seeing on Fox News, or whatever their media bubble is that just really kind of set off this trigger of re outrage or whatever. Because even just like you were talking about white privilege, yes, somebody that's a white person that's grown up, spent their entire lives poor, working hard, whatever, they see that and they're like, What the fuck are you talking about? I'm just trying my best to get by. I can't move forward in my life. What are you talking about? I have privilege? But I think that reframing it things like that in certain ways. I think one of one of the most brilliant things I've seen specifically around white privilege is, and I think I'm paraphrasing this, but it's like white privilege doesn't mean you haven't had a hard life, it means that your skin color or your background or ethnicity isn't one of those things that have made it harder. So I think that like once you, I think that doing shifting things a little bit in a way, and kind of packaging the message for the recipient versus kind of broadcast to every single person, I think that can go a long way to hopefully, if not kind of getting them completely on your side, just kind of see having a little bit more of an understanding about the perspectives and stuff from each other.
Katie Martell
And we've introduced a lot of problems, not a lot of solutions. But hey, it's encouraging to know that we're all kind of experiencing a similar thing. Whenever I bring out my dad, I hear a ton of people go Yep, me too. And I have felt very distant from XYZ, parent, aunt, uncle, whatever, because of that divide. And it really, it's, it's helpful to know when we're not alone, in that experience, you know,
Derek Horn
hmm.
Katie Martell
Shall we move to the big question, the one that leaves us feeling a sense of hope?
Derek Horn
Let's do it.
Katie Martell
Let's do it one day in. And that day is increasingly soon, given where you started the podcast, this is going to be behind us. And we will look back on this pandemic. And go remember that? Remember that? And I want to ask you, when you picture that day, what are you hopeful for?
Derek Horn
You know, I know this sounds kind of trite, or Pollyannaish or whatever. But I really do hope that we can be kinder and more patient with each other. I think we really have no idea what is going on in each other's lives. That was true before this, it’s especially true now. And I think that, like I was saying before about kind of charting your experience onto that of others. Regardless of the scale of somebody’s battle, it's like everybody is still fighting some form of battle within them. And I think that just as much grace and kindness, you can show each other as kind of the norm, without feeling that they have to do something to earn it or whatever, I really think that that type of approach is what's going to make our world better rather than this kind of transactional approach to kindness or how you treat other people.
I think whenever you can just keep a curious mind and kind of ask people or have a dialogue with them about kind of what their life is like seat see things from their perspective. I think one of the greatest thing about this podcast experience is it has helped me reconnect with people that I've fallen out of touch with or haven't talked to in a long while. It's helped me strengthen relationships with people that I've known but haven't really talked to on a deep level, yourself included. And also just kind of Yeah, just helped me learn more about different people's areas of expertise. So I guess just I hope people continue to keep a curious mind and are kinder with each other. Those are my top two hopes for this, this crazy messed up and wild world that we live in.
Katie Martell
I hope that we also keep the kindness to ourselves. I think I honestly think that that's a big lesson many people have to learn myself included, it's a daily struggle, you know, be kind to yourself and your thoughts and your actions. And I think that's where kindness to others starts. What does that RuPaul quote that we all love, can't love yourself, how you can love someone else. It's, it's, I think, very, very, very true. But Derek, you've been a really lovely voice in these crazy uncertain times. Because of this just general, you know, you've got this sense of empathy, but this desire to share that and others and lift up other’ stories. Stories are how we make sense of the world and each other. So thank you for the work you've done in the 20 episodes. I don't know if this is number 20. But it's really been an honor to bookend this, and I'm so happy we had a chance to elevate your point of view. Is there anything else that I didn't ask that you want to make sure you get as part of this? very special episode?
Derek Horn
Yeah, thank you. I think that if anything, I just want to bring home the nature of this podcast’s name. I think we talked about this in your episode. But obviously, it was born from those really, kind of cookie-cutter commercials we were seeing in the beginning of the pandemic “Oh, and these uncertain times. Home Depot is here for you” things like and it became kind of laughable at that point, and kind of whatever that say what you want about that form of marketing, but the more I think about it is kind of wild how we are framed framing up this, this period, as the first time that uncertainty has been introduced in history or in a very long time, at least, when in reality, I think that yes, there is a great deal of uncertainty around this specific situation that we're in. But if anything, the way that so many of our systems kind of just fell to shit in a matter of days and weeks and kind of so many things were thrown into disarray, just shows you how little uncertainty there was before this pandemic, in a societal level, in our personal lives, on just about every scale you can imagine.
So that's one of the things I'm hopeful for, especially if I continue this project is to continue to unpack that idea of uncertainty. Be it as we chart our ourselves for it in this new world, or even in other areas as well, I know that, like I was talking about my challenges with OCD and anxiety growing up and to this day. So much of that is about this idea of uncertainty and how you don't know what is going to happen. And you can't control it. And that that that was true before that pandemic, and it will be the same afterwards. So what are those stories looking like on a personal level? See, yeah, I this long story short, the pandemic has introduced a lot of uncertainty, but it's not the only uncertain time we've ever lived in. And I think that that's something that I just the human element of that is something that I'm excited to continue thinking about and exploring. Even if this chapter, the podcast experience is closed.
Katie Martell
I hope you take what this podcast was, which was this intentional, reconnecting with people that you are either interested by or fascinated or just connected with, and let in giving them a platform to share their stories and share their perspective. I think anytime you do that in any format, in any output, any channel, it makes the world a better place. The uncertainties in change the only constants in life, it's how we adapt to it. It's the muscle that I think all of us have either built or recognize that we need to work on. These past few months. It's a muscle and the more you strengthen your ability to handle chaos and change. I think the better suited you are to navigate this crazy thing we call life. I don't know what's coming into me. I find that comforting. I've learned to embrace chaos, because to me chaos and change is opportunity. If you can change, it means you can better yourself and the world around you. That's very comforting to me.
Derek Horn
Yeah. And I think this past year, this experience, so much of our lives were thrown on their head, it's like it also I feel like I'm emerging from it with a little bit of confidence to like, hey, I dealt with that. I dealt with all these twists and turns. I can handle a lot as well. And I think that any future experiences were challenges or unexpected twists are thrown my way. It's like, yeah, I have the fortitude I can weather that, I can make it happen and hopefully support others and doing the same.
Katie Martell
I love it. You survived COVID. That means you can do anything. Let's take that. Let's take that and run with it. I'll take that confidence.
Derek, thank you. Thank you for being willing to sit in the hot seat on your own podcast. And thank you for the opportunity to be your guest host. I really do hope that we continue to find ways to create things in this world because I just think you are the bee's knees and the world needs more Derek J. Horn. Thank you, my friend.
Derek Horn
Thank you, Katie, thank you for being my first guest and my bros. Are thank you for being my first guest and the last guest on this batch of episodes. And I hope we can cross paths creatively again soon.
Katie Martell
See you in Florida!
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Derek Horn
Thank you so much to Katie for your wonderful hosting services. Stay tuned for Season 2, likely coming later this year. Do you have feedback or ideas for what you might want to hear in a season 2? Shoot me an email at derekjhorn@gmail.com.